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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22549@postgresql.org Wed May 8 11:22:40 2002
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Wed, 8 May 2002 08:35:20 -0400
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Message-ID: <3CD91B88.38CD6C3@mohawksoft.com>
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Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 08:35:20 -0400
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From: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>
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X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-SMP-020426 i686)
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X-Accept-Language: en
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MIME-Version: 1.0
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To: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>,
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Jan Wieck <janwieck@yahoo.com>, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>,
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"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>, Dann Corbit <DCorbit@connx.com>
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Subject: [HACKERS] Path to PostgreSQL portabiliy
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Precedence: bulk
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Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
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Status: RO
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Do we want a Win32 native version of PostgreSQL?
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The only reasons *not* to use Cygwin is licensing, installation hassles, and
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maybe stability or performance. Therefore, there is no strong technical reason
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to defend its removal, only a philosophical one.
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The debates on licensing on this list go on for weeks and people feel
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passionately about the subject. It seems odd that no one speaks out about the
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GNU requirement of cygwin.
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If there is a desire to create a PostgreSQL that is "fork" free, then we should
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do it now. If now strong desire exists, then we should make an entry in the FAQ
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and move on.
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If we want to be "portable" (and this should help us with a threading model
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later on) we need to cleanup all of the global variables.
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PostgreSQL's postmaster should not touch any global variables that are defined
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outside something like a pg_global structure and should not touch any static
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variables at all. If postmaster initializes a variable that will get cloned on
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a fork(), conceptually it is a shared global variable and belongs in
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pg_globals. Going all the way and replacing all globals and statics with a
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struct should allow threading with TLS. (Thread Local Storage)
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Port lib. Regardless where it comes from, the porting code should be a self
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contained library, not a list of objects. On Windows, a .DLL can do some things
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easier than an application. Also, having a library allows more flexibility as
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to how a port is designed.
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We should spec out our port interface. This includes file, semaphores, shared
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memory, signals/events, process control, IPC, system resources, etc. This will
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grow as we re-port to other environments like Windows.
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any comments?
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---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
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subscribe-nomail command to majordomo@postgresql.org so that your
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22551@postgresql.org Wed May 8 11:41:42 2002
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Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22551@postgresql.org>
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Wed, 8 May 2002 10:16:16 -0400
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Message-ID: <3CD93330.2F3541D2@mohawksoft.com>
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Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 10:16:16 -0400
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From: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>
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X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-SMP-020426 i686)
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X-Accept-Language: en
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MIME-Version: 1.0
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To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>,
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Jan Wieck <janwieck@yahoo.com>, "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>,
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Dann Corbit <DCorbit@connx.com>
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Path to PostgreSQL portabiliy
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References: <3CD91B88.38CD6C3@mohawksoft.com> <1782.1020866623@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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Precedence: bulk
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Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
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Status: RO
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Tom Lane wrote:
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>
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> mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com> writes:
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> > Port lib. Regardless where it comes from, the porting code should be a
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> > self contained library, not a list of objects. On Windows, a .DLL can
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> > do some things easier than an application. Also, having a library
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> > allows more flexibility as to how a port is designed.
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>
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> That may be necessary on Windoze, but on any other platform breaking out
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> an essential part of the backend as a library strikes me as a dead loss.
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> You create extra risk of installation mistakes, can't-find-library
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> startup failures, version mismatch problems, etc, etc --- for zero gain
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> that I can see.
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It does not need, and probably should not be by default, a shared library under
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UNIX. A static library is fine. The issue is whether or not it makes sense to
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try and design all porting layers the same, or allow the port engineer the
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flexibility to create what they need the way they need to do it.
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A side note:
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The "Windoze" comment says a lot Tom. Believe me, I am currently no fan of
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Windows, but there is something to be said about doing a good job supporting
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such a popular platform, regardless of our personal opinions. When I was
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working at DMN, I had to make sure we could find country music and Brittany
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Spears. Distasteful, but certainly something that needed to be done.
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IMHO, I think a great PostgreSQL implementation for Win32 is a nail in the
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coffin for Windows. If we give them a great database, which runs well under
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Windows, for free, MSSQL will now have a serious competitor for the medium to
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small marketplace.
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Once MSSQL has viable cross-platform competition in this space, one less
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requirement for Windows will exist. Right now, if you implement on Windows, you
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are most likely going to use MSSQL and be stuck there. With a good Win32
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PostgreSQL, an engineer can implement on PostgreSQL for Windows, and easily
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move it to a "real" environment for stability.
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I see it as an important step.
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---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
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http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22561@postgresql.org Wed May 8 15:02:45 2002
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Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22561@postgresql.org>
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for <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>; Wed, 8 May 2002 11:57:17 -0400 (EDT)
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Wed, 8 May 2002 11:57:11 -0400 (EDT)
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To: Thomas Lockhart <lockhart@fourpalms.org>
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cc: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>,
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PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>,
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Jan Wieck <janwieck@yahoo.com>, "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>,
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Dann Corbit <DCorbit@connx.com>
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Path to PostgreSQL portabiliy
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In-Reply-To: <3CD9461E.1FDC6344@fourpalms.org>
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References: <3CD91B88.38CD6C3@mohawksoft.com> <3CD9461E.1FDC6344@fourpalms.org>
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Comments: In-reply-to Thomas Lockhart <lockhart@fourpalms.org>
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message dated "Wed, 08 May 2002 08:37:02 -0700"
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Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 11:57:11 -0400
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Message-ID: <2681.1020873431@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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Precedence: bulk
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Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
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Status: RO
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Thomas Lockhart <lockhart@fourpalms.org> writes:
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> 2) If (1) does not exempt the PostgreSQL app from GPL polution, then why
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> not distribute PostgreSQL on Windows using a GPL license?
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Given the cygwin licensing terms stated at
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http://cygwin.com/licensing.html
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it appears to me that we need not open that can of worms (and I'd much
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rather not muddy the licensing waters that way, regardless of any
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arguments about whether it would hurt or not...)
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As near as I can tell, we *could* develop a self-contained installation
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package for PG+cygwin without any licensing problem. So that set of
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problems could be solved with a reasonable amount of work. I'm still
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unclear on whether there are serious technical problems (performance,
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stability) with using cygwin.
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(Actually, even if there are performance or stability problems, an
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easily-installable package would still address the needs of people who
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want to "try it out" or "get their feet wet". And maybe that's all we
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need to do. We always have said that we recommend a Unix platform for
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production-grade PG installations, and IMNSHO that recommendation would
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not change one iota if there were a native rather than cygwin-based
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Windows port. So I'm unconvinced that we have a problem to solve
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anyway...)
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regards, tom lane
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---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22572@postgresql.org Wed May 8 15:21:17 2002
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Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22572@postgresql.org>
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Wed, 8 May 2002 12:29:07 -0400
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Message-ID: <3CD95253.45C01EC0@mohawksoft.com>
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Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 12:29:07 -0400
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From: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>
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X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-SMP-020426 i686)
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X-Accept-Language: en
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MIME-Version: 1.0
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To: Thomas Lockhart <lockhart@fourpalms.org>
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cc: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>,
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PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>,
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Jan Wieck <janwieck@yahoo.com>, "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>,
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Dann Corbit <DCorbit@connx.com>
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Path to PostgreSQL portabiliy
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References: <3CD91B88.38CD6C3@mohawksoft.com> <3CD9461E.1FDC6344@fourpalms.org> <2681.1020873431@sss.pgh.pa.us> <3CD94E04.AF837261@fourpalms.org>
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Precedence: bulk
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Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
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Status: RO
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Thomas Lockhart wrote:
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>
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> ...
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> > As near as I can tell, we *could* develop a self-contained installation
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> > package for PG+cygwin without any licensing problem.
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>
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> Right. That was my opinion also. But istm that however the discussion
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> settles out, there is a path to success.
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These last couple days have really started me thinking about Windows again. I
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developed Windows software for over a decade, geez much longer than that, I
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wrote my first Windows program using the Windows 1.03 SDK. (I am in a 12 step
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program now, but you guys are causing a relapse!)
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Listen, here is purely my opinion on the matter, I am speaking from my
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experience as a Windows user, developer, and author (Tricks of the Windows 3.1
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Masters).
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It is useless to spend serious time on a cygwin version. Yea, it is cool and
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all, but it won't be used. From the eyes of a Windows user cygwin is a hack and
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a mess. An IT guy that only knows Windows will never use it, and if presented
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with a program that forces a UNIX like directory tree on their hard drive and
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UNIX like tools to manage it, they will delete the program and curse the time
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spent installing it.
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Performance may also be an issue, I don't know for sure, but it is suspected.
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The cygwin fork troubles me as well. It may work, but I would not call it a
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"production" technique, how about you? Would you bet your business on cygwin
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and a hacked fork()?
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No matter what steps you take, cygwin will not be seen by Windows users as
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anything but a sloppy/messy/horrible hack. It is a fact of life. You are
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welcome to disagree, but I assure you it is true.
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>From a usefulness perspective, a cygwin version of PostgreSQL will be nothing
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more than a proof of concept, a test bed, or a demo. It will never be used as a
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serious database. How much work does that warrant?
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TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
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http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22576@postgresql.org Wed May 8 17:06:18 2002
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Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22576@postgresql.org>
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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From: Lamar Owen <lamar.owen@wgcr.org>
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To: Thomas Lockhart <lockhart@fourpalms.org>, mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Path to PostgreSQL portabiliy
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Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 14:49:39 -0400
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User-Agent: KMail/1.4.1
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cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>,
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Jan Wieck <janwieck@yahoo.com>, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>,
|
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"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>, Dann Corbit <DCorbit@connx.com>
|
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References: <3CD91B88.38CD6C3@mohawksoft.com> <3CD9461E.1FDC6344@fourpalms.org>
|
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In-Reply-To: <3CD9461E.1FDC6344@fourpalms.org>
|
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Message-ID: <200205081449.39473.lamar.owen@wgcr.org>
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|
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|
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|
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On Wednesday 08 May 2002 11:37 am, Thomas Lockhart wrote:
|
|
> 1) cygwin is licensed under GPL. So is GNU/Linux, which provides the
|
|
> same APIs as cygwin does. Linux does not pollute application licenses,
|
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> presumably because Linux itself is not *required* to run the
|
|
|
|
The Linux kernel is not under a pure GPL.
|
|
|
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COPYING in the kernel source says this, prepended to the GPL:
|
|
NOTE! This copyright does *not* cover user programs that use kernel
|
|
services by normal system calls - this is merely considered normal use
|
|
of the kernel, and does *not* fall under the heading of "derived work".
|
|
Also note that the GPL below is copyrighted by the Free Software
|
|
Foundation, but the instance of code that it refers to (the Linux
|
|
kernel) is copyrighted by me and others who actually wrote it.
|
|
|
|
Also note that the only valid version of the GPL as far as the kernel
|
|
is concerned is _this_ particular version of the license (ie v2, not
|
|
v2.2 or v3.x or whatever), unless explicitly otherwise stated.
|
|
|
|
Linus Torvalds
|
|
|
|
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
|
|
|
Does cygwin make the same statement?
|
|
|
|
> 2) If (1) does not exempt the PostgreSQL app from GPL polution, then why
|
|
> not distribute PostgreSQL on Windows using a GPL license?
|
|
|
|
[snip]
|
|
|
|
> 3) If (2) is the case, then development could continue under the BSD
|
|
> license, since developers could use the BSD-original code for their
|
|
> development work. So there is no risk of "backflow polution".
|
|
|
|
Can PostgreSQL, Inc be the GPL distributor for these purposes, being a
|
|
separate entity from the PostgreSQL Global Development Group?
|
|
--
|
|
Lamar Owen
|
|
WGCR Internet Radio
|
|
1 Peter 4:11
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
|
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|
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|
|
|
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22580@postgresql.org Wed May 8 17:34:55 2002
|
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|
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08 May 2002 13:54:00 -0600 (MDT)
|
|
Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 12:53:57 -0700
|
|
From: Paul Ramsey <pramsey@refractions.net>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Path to PostgreSQL portabiliy
|
|
To: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>
|
|
cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Message-ID: <3CD98255.4B52751@refractions.net>
|
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References: <3CD91B88.38CD6C3@mohawksoft.com> <3CD9461E.1FDC6344@fourpalms.org>
|
|
<2681.1020873431@sss.pgh.pa.us> <3CD94E04.AF837261@fourpalms.org>
|
|
<3CD95253.45C01EC0@mohawksoft.com>
|
|
Precedence: bulk
|
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Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
|
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Status: RO
|
|
|
|
mlw wrote:
|
|
>
|
|
> No matter what steps you take, cygwin will not be seen by Windows users as
|
|
> anything but a sloppy/messy/horrible hack. It is a fact of life. You are
|
|
> welcome to disagree, but I assure you it is true.
|
|
|
|
Just to clarify here: is it confirmed that having the complete cygwin
|
|
distribution is a necessary condition to having a running PostgreSQL on
|
|
windows? Is it not possible that, having built postgresql with the full
|
|
cygwin, it would be possible to make a nice clean setup.exe package
|
|
which bundles the postgresql executables, the required cygwin dlls and
|
|
other niceties into an easy install package? Given that, I do not think
|
|
your putative windows user would care at all about what was going on
|
|
under the covers. As long as the install was clean, there were utilities
|
|
(pgadmin?) to start working with the database right away, and things
|
|
"just worked", the ugliness (or exquisite symmetry... I am not an
|
|
expert) of the fork() implementation really would not be an issue :)
|
|
|
|
Of course, an imaginary beautiful packaging regime hinges on the
|
|
possibility of bundling the cygwin api libraries cleanly without
|
|
bundling all the rest of the cygwin scruft (unix directory heirarchy,
|
|
etc etc). Anyone have any light to shed on cygwin's "packagability"?
|
|
|
|
P.
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
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TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
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|
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|
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22581@postgresql.org Wed May 8 17:58:25 2002
|
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Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22581@postgresql.org>
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|
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|
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|
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Wed, 8 May 2002 16:12:17 -0400
|
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Message-ID: <3CD986A1.9DC78DD2@mohawksoft.com>
|
|
Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 16:12:17 -0400
|
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From: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>
|
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|
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To: Paul Ramsey <pramsey@refractions.net>
|
|
cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Path to PostgreSQL portabiliy
|
|
References: <3CD91B88.38CD6C3@mohawksoft.com> <3CD9461E.1FDC6344@fourpalms.org>
|
|
<2681.1020873431@sss.pgh.pa.us> <3CD94E04.AF837261@fourpalms.org>
|
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<3CD95253.45C01EC0@mohawksoft.com> <3CD98255.4B52751@refractions.net>
|
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|
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Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
|
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Status: RO
|
|
|
|
Paul Ramsey wrote:
|
|
>
|
|
> mlw wrote:
|
|
> >
|
|
> > No matter what steps you take, cygwin will not be seen by Windows users as
|
|
> > anything but a sloppy/messy/horrible hack. It is a fact of life. You are
|
|
> > welcome to disagree, but I assure you it is true.
|
|
>
|
|
> Just to clarify here: is it confirmed that having the complete cygwin
|
|
> distribution is a necessary condition to having a running PostgreSQL on
|
|
> windows? Is it not possible that, having built postgresql with the full
|
|
> cygwin, it would be possible to make a nice clean setup.exe package
|
|
> which bundles the postgresql executables, the required cygwin dlls and
|
|
> other niceties into an easy install package? Given that, I do not think
|
|
> your putative windows user would care at all about what was going on
|
|
> under the covers. As long as the install was clean, there were utilities
|
|
> (pgadmin?) to start working with the database right away, and things
|
|
> "just worked", the ugliness (or exquisite symmetry... I am not an
|
|
> expert) of the fork() implementation really would not be an issue :)
|
|
|
|
Windows users expect to have C:\my programs\postgres as the install location. A
|
|
person who has used or looked at MSSQL would expect to deal with the real file
|
|
system. The cygwin environment shields the UNIX program from Windows, the
|
|
Windows user would expect the program to deal with the system as is.
|
|
|
|
The Windows user that would install PostgreSQL would expect it to be a real
|
|
windows program, but would be savvy enough (and prejudiced enough) to know if
|
|
it weren't.
|
|
|
|
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|
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TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
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|
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|
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22585@postgresql.org Wed May 8 19:23:09 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22585@postgresql.org>
|
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|
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|
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|
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id F16DF2B95F; Wed, 8 May 2002 18:14:05 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
From: "Joel Burton" <joel@joelburton.com>
|
|
To: "Paul Ramsey" <pramsey@refractions.net>, "mlw" <markw@mohawksoft.com>
|
|
cc: "PostgreSQL-development" <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Path to PostgreSQL portabiliy
|
|
Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 18:09:41 -0400
|
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|
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|
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> -----Original Message-----
|
|
> From: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
|
|
> [mailto:pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org]On Behalf Of Paul Ramsey
|
|
> Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2002 3:54 PM
|
|
> To: mlw
|
|
> Cc: PostgreSQL-development
|
|
> Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Path to PostgreSQL portabiliy
|
|
>
|
|
>
|
|
> mlw wrote:
|
|
> >
|
|
> > No matter what steps you take, cygwin will not be seen by
|
|
> Windows users as
|
|
> > anything but a sloppy/messy/horrible hack. It is a fact of life. You are
|
|
> > welcome to disagree, but I assure you it is true.
|
|
>
|
|
> Just to clarify here: is it confirmed that having the complete cygwin
|
|
> distribution is a necessary condition to having a running PostgreSQL on
|
|
> windows? Is it not possible that, having built postgresql with the full
|
|
> cygwin, it would be possible to make a nice clean setup.exe package
|
|
> which bundles the postgresql executables, the required cygwin dlls and
|
|
> other niceties into an easy install package? Given that, I do not think
|
|
> your putative windows user would care at all about what was going on
|
|
> under the covers. As long as the install was clean, there were utilities
|
|
> (pgadmin?) to start working with the database right away, and things
|
|
> "just worked", the ugliness (or exquisite symmetry... I am not an
|
|
> expert) of the fork() implementation really would not be an issue :)
|
|
>
|
|
> Of course, an imaginary beautiful packaging regime hinges on the
|
|
> possibility of bundling the cygwin api libraries cleanly without
|
|
> bundling all the rest of the cygwin scruft (unix directory heirarchy,
|
|
> etc etc). Anyone have any light to shed on cygwin's "packagability"?
|
|
|
|
Certainly, we don't need all of cygwin (eg bison, gcc, perl, et al). We'd
|
|
need the dll, sh, rm, and few other things. I'm not sure if it would need to
|
|
be in the standard cygwin file structure; I know that you can reconfigure
|
|
this when you use cygwin (I used to). In any event, instead of having to
|
|
have a novice pick & guess which of >100 packages they need, we could put
|
|
together the 5 or 6 they need.
|
|
|
|
I'm not sure I agree entirely with mlw: some Windows admins will be afraid
|
|
of cygwin, but, I'll bet more than a few won't even notice that its being
|
|
used (especially if we can change the dir names, provide windows shortcuts
|
|
to the commands like initdb, create database, pg_ctl, etc., which would be
|
|
trivial to do).
|
|
|
|
Still unanswered is real data on whether cygwin would be good for serious
|
|
production use by real people. However, for the test/play/try-out model, I
|
|
think cygwin would be a fine solution, and wouldn't (shouldn't?) require too
|
|
much work.
|
|
|
|
- J.
|
|
|
|
|
|
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TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
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http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22603@postgresql.org Thu May 9 03:24:18 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22603@postgresql.org>
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Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 15:34:06 +0800
|
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To: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>, Lee Kindness <lkindness@csl.co.uk>
|
|
From: Lincoln Yeoh <lyeoh@pop.jaring.my>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Path to PostgreSQL portabiliy
|
|
cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
In-Reply-To: <3CD949FA.86BD95D2@mohawksoft.com>
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References: <3CD91B88.38CD6C3@mohawksoft.com>
|
|
<15577.17903.180863.251963@kelvin.csl.co.uk>
|
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MIME-Version: 1.0
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Status: RO
|
|
|
|
Who really is your target "market" on the windows platform? Microsoft
|
|
Access users (many)? MySQL users(insignificant?)? MSSQL (many)?
|
|
|
|
Assuming that the postgresql team isn't getting lots of money or resources
|
|
to do it. I don't see why you would want to invest a lot to support windows
|
|
from a long term point of view. Windows can be a costly platform to support.
|
|
|
|
Because if you become a serious threat, Microsoft can rip the rug from
|
|
beneath you any chance they get. Also Microsoft WILL always change their
|
|
APIs. They're not stupid. If Microsoft freezes their APIs they will end up
|
|
like "yet another BIOS manufacturer", and bye bye profit margins. Microsoft
|
|
will strive to keep it a proprietary AND changing API.
|
|
|
|
Windows is rather different operationally. Automating vacuum etc on windows
|
|
is going to be different. Starting postgresql as a service is going to be
|
|
different as well. Same for uninstalling. So support requests are going to
|
|
be different.
|
|
|
|
If your target market is consumer - Windows consumer users also have
|
|
different expectations. Most will want nicer GUIs (those that don't care
|
|
won't mind running Postgresql elsewhere).
|
|
|
|
BTW if your target market is a bit higher end - typically those that "must
|
|
use" windows also "must use" MSSQL/Oracle/etc. You will thus have to build
|
|
brand recognition for Postgresql on Windows.
|
|
|
|
All this will cost you.
|
|
|
|
That said, is it easier to support only Windows NT/2000 and forget about
|
|
Win9x? The bigger dbs don't support win9x either (how does Oracle/DB2
|
|
support NT? They seem to work ok). Leave MySQL to the Win9x people ;). BTW
|
|
does MySQL really perform OK on Win9x?
|
|
|
|
Forget the Cygwin approach. Is there really a market for that? Unless
|
|
things have got a lot easier, installing Cygwin is like installing a new
|
|
O/S just to install your app. And installing and learning a new system has
|
|
got to be one of the major barriers, otherwise people will either buy a new
|
|
USD500 1.5+ GHz pc or use VMware+BSD/Linux+Postgresql ;).
|
|
|
|
Cheerio,
|
|
Link.
|
|
|
|
At 11:53 AM 5/8/02 -0400, mlw wrote:
|
|
>writing software for over 20 years now, and sometimes you just have to hold
|
|
>your nose. It would be nice if we could code what we want, the way we want, in
|
|
>the language we want, on the platforms we want.
|
|
>
|
|
>Windows represents a HUGE user base, it also represents a platform for which a
|
|
>real good native PostgreSQL should do well. There are, to my knowledge, no
|
|
>good
|
|
>and free databases available for Windows.
|
|
>
|
|
>PostgreSQL on Windows could be very cool as a serious poster child for why
|
|
>open-source is the way to go.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
|
|
|
|
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22605@postgresql.org Thu May 9 03:42:59 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22605@postgresql.org>
|
|
Received: from postgresql.org (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
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|
by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g497gw422047
|
|
for <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>; Thu, 9 May 2002 03:42:58 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
Received: from localhost.localdomain (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
|
|
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|
|
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|
|
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|
|
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|
|
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|
|
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|
|
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|
|
for <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>; Thu, 9 May 2002 03:42:19 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
Received: from salem.vale-housing.co.uk (mailgate.vale-housing.co.uk [193.195.77.162])
|
|
by postgresql.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2D2A5475A19
|
|
for <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>; Thu, 9 May 2002 03:42:18 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Path to PostgreSQL portabiliy
|
|
Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 08:42:18 +0100
|
|
Message-ID: <214E9C0A75426D47A876A2FD8A07426E9747@salem.vale-housing.co.uk>
|
|
MIME-Version: 1.0
|
|
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|
|
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|
|
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|
Thread-Topic: Path to PostgreSQL portabiliy
|
|
Thread-Index: AcH251A9jOrpk8IETTmDgJDVmp55WQAAClTQABEg5nA=
|
|
From: "Dave Page" <dpage@vale-housing.co.uk>
|
|
To: "Dann Corbit" <DCorbit@connx.com>,
|
|
"PostgreSQL-development" <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Precedence: bulk
|
|
Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
|
|
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
|
|
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by candle.pha.pa.us id g497gw422047
|
|
Status: RO
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
> -----Original Message-----
|
|
> From: Dann Corbit [mailto:DCorbit@connx.com]
|
|
> Sent: 09 May 2002 00:31
|
|
> To: PostgreSQL-development
|
|
> Subject: Re: Path to PostgreSQL portabiliy
|
|
>
|
|
>
|
|
> If you have a Win32 workstation...
|
|
> Look here:
|
|
> http://sources.redhat.com/cygwin/
|
|
>
|
|
> Then click on the thing that says "Install Now" (Looks like a
|
|
> black "C" with a green tongue).
|
|
>
|
|
> after a small boatload of clicks, you will see a Window
|
|
> labeled "Cygwin Setup". Under +All you will find...
|
|
> +Admin
|
|
> +Archive
|
|
> +Base
|
|
> +Database
|
|
>
|
|
> Click on the plus sign next to the Database category.
|
|
>
|
|
> You will see:
|
|
> 7.2.1-1 [options] [Bin] [Src] [Package] posgresql:
|
|
> PostgreSQL Data Base Management System
|
|
>
|
|
> In other words, they already have an automated installation
|
|
> procedure for PostgreSQL if you are using Cygwin.
|
|
|
|
The last time I tried that (coupla months ago) it listed the versions of
|
|
the packages in reverse order, so I spent about 15 very tedious minutes
|
|
making sure that I have the latest version of all the packages I wanted
|
|
selected.
|
|
|
|
Then I spent an hour or 2 battling with ntsec and initdb on my laptop
|
|
(logged onto, but disconnected from the domain). After that I gave up
|
|
and went back to my very old release that works fine.
|
|
|
|
The point I'm trying to make is that if I, as a not inexperienced
|
|
sysadmin of both Windows and Unix systems (not to mention PostgreSQL
|
|
which I like to think I'm fairly familiar with) has this trouble, what
|
|
impression is that going to give the first time user, who's probably
|
|
going to go elsewhere at the first sign of trouble?
|
|
|
|
Regards, Dave.
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org
|
|
|
|
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22628@postgresql.org Thu May 9 10:26:16 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22628@postgresql.org>
|
|
Received: from postgresql.org (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
|
|
by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g49EQF406536
|
|
for <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>; Thu, 9 May 2002 10:26:16 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
Received: from localhost.localdomain (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
|
|
by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP
|
|
id A60614764BC; Thu, 9 May 2002 10:26:09 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
Received: from postgresql.org (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
|
|
by postgresql.org (Postfix) with SMTP
|
|
id 5A7754763DA; Thu, 9 May 2002 10:13:35 -0400 (EDT)
|
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Received: from localhost.localdomain (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
|
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|
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|
|
Received: from snoopy.mohawksoft.com (h0050bf7a618d.ne.client2.attbi.com [24.147.138.78])
|
|
by postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BD714764C9
|
|
for <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>; Thu, 9 May 2002 10:10:25 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
Received: from mohawksoft.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
|
|
by snoopy.mohawksoft.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g49E53t28604;
|
|
Thu, 9 May 2002 10:05:03 -0400
|
|
Message-ID: <3CDA820F.136D65F5@mohawksoft.com>
|
|
Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 10:05:03 -0400
|
|
From: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>
|
|
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-SMP-020426 i686)
|
|
X-Accept-Language: en
|
|
MIME-Version: 1.0
|
|
To: Jan Wieck <janwieck@yahoo.com>
|
|
cc: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>, "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>,
|
|
PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] How much work is a native Windows application?
|
|
References: <200205091344.g49DiBp01273@saturn.janwieck.net>
|
|
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
|
|
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
|
|
Precedence: bulk
|
|
Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
|
|
Status: RO
|
|
|
|
Jan Wieck wrote:
|
|
>
|
|
> Tom Lane wrote:
|
|
> > "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org> writes:
|
|
> > > On Tue, 7 May 2002, Tom Lane wrote:
|
|
> > >> It'd be worth trying to understand cygwin issues in detail before we
|
|
> > >> sign up to do and support a native Windows port.
|
|
> >
|
|
> > > Actually, there are licensing issues involved ... we could never put a
|
|
> > > 'windows binary' up for anon-ftp, since to distribute it would require the
|
|
> > > cygwin.dll to be distributed, and to do that, there is a licensing cost
|
|
> > > ... of course, I guess we could require ppl to download cygwin seperately,
|
|
> > > install that, then install the binary over top of that ...
|
|
> >
|
|
> > <<itch>> And how much development time are we supposed to expend to
|
|
> > avoid that?
|
|
> >
|
|
> > Give me a technical case for avoiding Cygwin, and maybe I can get
|
|
> > excited about it. I'm not planning to lift a finger on the basis
|
|
> > of licensing though... after all, Windows users are accustomed to
|
|
> > paying for software, no?
|
|
>
|
|
> Nobody asked you to lift any of your fingers. A few people
|
|
> (including me) just see value in a native Windows port,
|
|
> kicking out the Cygwin requirement.
|
|
>
|
|
> I have the impression you never did use Cygwin. I did, thanks
|
|
> but no thanks.
|
|
|
|
I have used the cygwin version too. It is a waste of time. No Windows user will
|
|
ever accept it. No windows-only user is going to use the cygwin tools. From a
|
|
production stand point, would anyone reading this trust their data to
|
|
PostgreSQL running on cygwin? Think about it, if you wouldn't, why would anyone
|
|
else.
|
|
|
|
I think, and I know people are probably sick of me spouting opinions, that if
|
|
you want a Windows presence for PostgreSQL, then we should write a real Win32
|
|
version.
|
|
|
|
If the global/static variables which are initialized by the postmaster are
|
|
moved to a structure, we can should be able to remove the fork() requirement
|
|
and port to a Win32 native system.
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
|
|
|
|
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22630@postgresql.org Thu May 9 10:37:12 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22630@postgresql.org>
|
|
Received: from postgresql.org (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
|
|
by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g49EbB409822
|
|
for <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>; Thu, 9 May 2002 10:37:11 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
Received: from localhost.localdomain (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
|
|
by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP
|
|
id 8ADB347661B; Thu, 9 May 2002 10:37:02 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
Received: from postgresql.org (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
|
|
by postgresql.org (Postfix) with SMTP
|
|
id 834AC4765D2; Thu, 9 May 2002 10:32:37 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
Received: from localhost.localdomain (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
|
|
by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id B04C04763ED
|
|
for <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>; Thu, 9 May 2002 10:32:26 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
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|
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by postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 858BD47644B
|
|
for <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>; Thu, 9 May 2002 10:25:44 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
Received: from sss2.sss.pgh.pa.us (tgl@localhost [127.0.0.1])
|
|
by sss.pgh.pa.us (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id g49EPhW19333;
|
|
Thu, 9 May 2002 10:25:43 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
To: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>
|
|
cc: Jan Wieck <janwieck@yahoo.com>, "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>,
|
|
PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] How much work is a native Windows application?
|
|
In-Reply-To: <3CDA820F.136D65F5@mohawksoft.com>
|
|
References: <200205091344.g49DiBp01273@saturn.janwieck.net> <3CDA820F.136D65F5@mohawksoft.com>
|
|
Comments: In-reply-to mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>
|
|
message dated "Thu, 09 May 2002 10:05:03 -0400"
|
|
Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 10:25:43 -0400
|
|
Message-ID: <19330.1020954343@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
|
From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
|
Precedence: bulk
|
|
Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
|
|
Status: RO
|
|
|
|
mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com> writes:
|
|
> I have used the cygwin version too. It is a waste of time. No Windows user will
|
|
> ever accept it. No windows-only user is going to use the cygwin tools.
|
|
|
|
With decent packaging, no windows-only user would even know we have
|
|
cygwin in there. The above argument is just plain irrelevant. The real
|
|
point is that we need a nice clean friendly GUI for both installation
|
|
and administration --- and AFAICS that will take about the same amount of
|
|
work to write whether the server requires cygwin internally or not.
|
|
|
|
Rather than expending largely-pointless work on internal rewrites of
|
|
the server, people who care about this issue ought to be thinking about
|
|
the GUI problems.
|
|
|
|
> From a production stand point, would anyone reading this trust their
|
|
> data to PostgreSQL running on cygwin?
|
|
|
|
I wouldn't trust my data to *any* database running on a Microsoft OS.
|
|
Period. The above argument thus doesn't impress me at all, especially
|
|
when it's being made without offering a shred of evidence that cygwin
|
|
contributes any major degree of instability.
|
|
|
|
I am especially unhappy about the prospect of major code revisions
|
|
and development time spent on chasing this rather than improving our
|
|
performance and stability on Unix-type OSes. I agree with the comment
|
|
someone else made: that's just playing Microsoft's game.
|
|
|
|
regards, tom lane
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
|
|
|
|
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22634@postgresql.org Thu May 9 11:12:12 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22634@postgresql.org>
|
|
Received: from postgresql.org (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
|
|
by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g49FCB419783
|
|
for <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>; Thu, 9 May 2002 11:12:11 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
Received: from localhost.localdomain (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
|
|
by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP
|
|
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|
|
Received: from postgresql.org (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
|
|
by postgresql.org (Postfix) with SMTP
|
|
id 5CAC8476567; Thu, 9 May 2002 11:08:52 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
Received: from localhost.localdomain (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
|
|
by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id 582F94762CF
|
|
for <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>; Thu, 9 May 2002 11:08:41 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
Received: from snoopy.mohawksoft.com (h0050bf7a618d.ne.client2.attbi.com [24.147.138.78])
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|
by postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 807C3475C8E
|
|
for <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>; Thu, 9 May 2002 11:00:17 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
Received: from mohawksoft.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
|
|
by snoopy.mohawksoft.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g49Et1t28775;
|
|
Thu, 9 May 2002 10:55:01 -0400
|
|
Message-ID: <3CDA8DC5.A76330A1@mohawksoft.com>
|
|
Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 10:55:01 -0400
|
|
From: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>
|
|
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-SMP-020426 i686)
|
|
X-Accept-Language: en
|
|
MIME-Version: 1.0
|
|
To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
|
cc: Jan Wieck <janwieck@yahoo.com>, "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>,
|
|
PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] How much work is a native Windows application?
|
|
References: <200205091344.g49DiBp01273@saturn.janwieck.net> <3CDA820F.136D65F5@mohawksoft.com> <19330.1020954343@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
|
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
|
|
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
|
|
Precedence: bulk
|
|
Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
|
|
Status: RO
|
|
|
|
Tom Lane wrote:
|
|
> With decent packaging, no windows-only user would even know we have
|
|
> cygwin in there. The above argument is just plain irrelevant. The real
|
|
> point is that we need a nice clean friendly GUI for both installation
|
|
> and administration --- and AFAICS that will take about the same amount of
|
|
> work to write whether the server requires cygwin internally or not.
|
|
|
|
Can a cygwin version of PostgreSQL see the native file system, like: C:\My
|
|
Database, D:\postgres?
|
|
|
|
> > From a production stand point, would anyone reading this trust their
|
|
> > data to PostgreSQL running on cygwin?
|
|
>
|
|
> I wouldn't trust my data to *any* database running on a Microsoft OS.
|
|
|
|
That is a prejudice that is affecting your judgment. Many people do trust
|
|
Windows, do I? No, but a lot of people do. People have trusted their businesses
|
|
on Windows NT/2K/XP, many are still doing so. We want these people to use
|
|
PostgreSQL, so when they see the error in their ways, they have a way out.
|
|
|
|
|
|
> The above argument thus doesn't impress me at all, especially
|
|
> when it's being made without offering a shred of evidence that cygwin
|
|
> contributes any major degree of instability.
|
|
|
|
>From a software development standpoint, I am VERY uncomfortable with the
|
|
technique of a user space program copying its writeable memory to another
|
|
process's. It may work until Microsoft changes something with the next version
|
|
of IE. What about anti-virus software, cygwin has problems with them, and you
|
|
have to have anti-virus software on Windows.
|
|
|
|
On top of that, the time spent copying the whole process is too long, and it
|
|
forces real memory to be allocated and initialized at process startup.
|
|
|
|
So, the cygwin fork() will cause PostgreSQL to be slower and use more memory
|
|
than a native version, and will not co-exist well with anti-virus software.
|
|
|
|
>
|
|
> I am especially unhappy about the prospect of major code revisions
|
|
> and development time spent on chasing this rather than improving our
|
|
> performance and stability on Unix-type OSes. I agree with the comment
|
|
> someone else made: that's just playing Microsoft's game.
|
|
|
|
Maybe is is playing "Microsoft's Game" but the end result will be a program
|
|
that can seriously compete with MSSQL on Windows, and provide a REAL migration
|
|
path to UNIX.
|
|
|
|
Many developers use MSSQL because they "have it" in MSDN, so to them, it is
|
|
free. Once they develop something using it, they are tied to Windows. When it
|
|
comes time to deploy their pet project, the company has to cough up the price
|
|
of the server.
|
|
|
|
A native, friendly, Win32 PostgreSQL that works the same on Windows as it does
|
|
on FreeBSD, Linux, Solaris, etc. Will offer the developer real options away
|
|
from Windows.
|
|
|
|
Also: I don't think it needs to be a major rewrite, no strategy needs to
|
|
change, it is basically renaming variables, i.e. my_global_var becomes
|
|
pg_globals.my_global_var.
|
|
|
|
Once that is done, a port writer can do what ever they need to do to get that
|
|
structure to the child correctly. As an exercise, I bet if we did this, we
|
|
would find bugs which are lurking, as yet unfound.
|
|
|
|
Besides, the discipline of using a globals structure will improve the code
|
|
base. Don't you agree?
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
|
|
subscribe-nomail command to majordomo@postgresql.org so that your
|
|
message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
|
|
|
|
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22635@postgresql.org Thu May 9 11:26:08 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22635@postgresql.org>
|
|
Received: from postgresql.org (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
|
|
by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g49FQ7422749
|
|
for <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>; Thu, 9 May 2002 11:26:07 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
Received: from localhost.localdomain (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
|
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|
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|
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|
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|
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|
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|
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for <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>; Thu, 9 May 2002 11:23:46 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
Received: from myst.fourpalms.org (www.fourpalms.org [64.3.68.148])
|
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by postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5269D47626D
|
|
for <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>; Thu, 9 May 2002 11:13:16 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
Received: from fourpalms.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1])
|
|
by myst.fourpalms.org (Postfix) with ESMTP
|
|
id 254F4201196; Thu, 9 May 2002 08:13:18 -0700 (PDT)
|
|
Message-ID: <3CDA920D.9AF8F9CF@fourpalms.org>
|
|
Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 08:13:17 -0700
|
|
From: Thomas Lockhart <lockhart@fourpalms.org>
|
|
Organization: Yes
|
|
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.8-34.1mdk i686)
|
|
X-Accept-Language: en
|
|
MIME-Version: 1.0
|
|
To: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>
|
|
cc: Lee Kindness <lkindness@csl.co.uk>, Jan Wieck <janwieck@yahoo.com>,
|
|
Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>, "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>,
|
|
PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] How much work is a native Windows application?
|
|
References: <29206.1020833367@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
|
<200205091344.g49DiBp01273@saturn.janwieck.net> <15578.33799.700751.945380@kelvin.csl.co.uk> <3CDA866D.25E7FADF@mohawksoft.com>
|
|
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
|
|
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
|
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Precedence: bulk
|
|
Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
|
|
Status: RO
|
|
|
|
...
|
|
> PostgreSQL's feature set and price ($0), with a good installer, would do VERY
|
|
> well.
|
|
|
|
That may be (I'd like to think so!).
|
|
|
|
We've identified at least a couple of barriers to folks running
|
|
PostgreSQL on Windows. The installer and GUI issue needs to be solved no
|
|
matter what, and we *could* have a version running on Windows with just
|
|
those things in place.
|
|
|
|
imho if we are going down the path, we need to take the first steps. And
|
|
those do *not* require code rewrites to do so (or at least don't appear
|
|
to).
|
|
|
|
If we had a package available for Windows -- with some developers such
|
|
as yourself supporting it -- then we could talk about putting more
|
|
resources into supporting that platform better. But the perception of at
|
|
least some of the key developers (including myself) is that *if* we did
|
|
the code rewrite, and *if* we spent the effort to end up as a native on
|
|
Windows, then we *very well might* be an unreliable database on an
|
|
unreliable platform.
|
|
|
|
istm that getting a well packaged system running now, then being able to
|
|
identify *only cygwin* as the barrier to better reliability would get
|
|
more support for changes in the backend code.
|
|
|
|
And if we were working toward some ability to do threading anyway (I
|
|
don't see that in the near future, but we've talked in the past about
|
|
structuring the query engine around "tuple sources" which could then be
|
|
distributed across threads or across machines) then maybe the next step
|
|
is easier.
|
|
|
|
My 2c...
|
|
|
|
- Thomas
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives?
|
|
|
|
http://archives.postgresql.org
|
|
|
|
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22644@postgresql.org Thu May 9 12:57:33 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22644@postgresql.org>
|
|
Received: from postgresql.org (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
|
|
by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g49GvX424180
|
|
for <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>; Thu, 9 May 2002 12:57:33 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
Received: from localhost.localdomain (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
|
|
by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP
|
|
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|
|
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|
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by postgresql.org (Postfix) with SMTP
|
|
id 841634766DB; Thu, 9 May 2002 12:50:50 -0400 (EDT)
|
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|
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|
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by postgresql.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D4DB2475AD5
|
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for <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>; Thu, 9 May 2002 12:41:12 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
Received: from psc.progress.com (HELO saturn.janwieck.net) (janwieck@192.233.92.200 with login)
|
|
by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 May 2002 16:41:17 -0000
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|
|
by saturn.janwieck.net (8.11.2/8.11.2) id g49GbGx01621;
|
|
Thu, 9 May 2002 12:37:16 -0400
|
|
From: Jan Wieck <janwieck@yahoo.com>
|
|
Message-ID: <200205091637.g49GbGx01621@saturn.janwieck.net>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] How much work is a native Windows application?
|
|
In-Reply-To: <3CDA820F.136D65F5@mohawksoft.com> from mlw at "May 9, 2002 10:05:03
|
|
am"
|
|
To: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>
|
|
Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 12:37:16 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
cc: Jan Wieck <janwieck@yahoo.com>, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>,
|
|
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>,
|
|
PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL68 (25)]
|
|
MIME-Version: 1.0
|
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
|
|
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|
|
Precedence: bulk
|
|
Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
|
|
Status: RO
|
|
|
|
mlw wrote:
|
|
> I think, and I know people are probably sick of me spouting opinions, that if
|
|
> you want a Windows presence for PostgreSQL, then we should write a real Win32
|
|
> version.
|
|
>
|
|
> If the global/static variables which are initialized by the postmaster are
|
|
> moved to a structure, we can should be able to remove the fork() requirement
|
|
> and port to a Win32 native system.
|
|
|
|
My opinion here is that until May 1998 Postgres did exec(),
|
|
so it was clean and okay for CreateProcess() up to then. Just
|
|
because we optimized it for the copy-on-write behaviour,
|
|
modern Unix kernels do with fork() only, is NO reason to
|
|
accept sloppy coding. The Postmaster and the backend have
|
|
different responsibilities. In fact, I still consider them
|
|
beeing different programs even if they reside in one
|
|
executable. Mixing global variables of one with the other is
|
|
wrong.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jan
|
|
|
|
--
|
|
|
|
#======================================================================#
|
|
# It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. #
|
|
# Let's break this rule - forgive me. #
|
|
#================================================== JanWieck@Yahoo.com #
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
|
|
|
|
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22662@postgresql.org Thu May 9 14:47:23 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22662@postgresql.org>
|
|
Received: from postgresql.org (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
|
|
by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g49IlM425877
|
|
for <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>; Thu, 9 May 2002 14:47:22 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
Received: from localhost.localdomain (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
|
|
by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP
|
|
id C6581475F6B; Thu, 9 May 2002 14:47:21 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
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|
|
by postgresql.org (Postfix) with SMTP
|
|
id D1B6D476703; Thu, 9 May 2002 14:42:52 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
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|
|
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|
|
for <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>; Thu, 9 May 2002 14:42:40 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
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|
|
by postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3726B47649E
|
|
for <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>; Thu, 9 May 2002 14:28:24 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
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|
|
by snoopy.mohawksoft.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g49IN2t29643;
|
|
Thu, 9 May 2002 14:23:02 -0400
|
|
Message-ID: <3CDABE86.D38370F4@mohawksoft.com>
|
|
Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 14:23:02 -0400
|
|
From: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>
|
|
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-SMP-020426 i686)
|
|
X-Accept-Language: en
|
|
MIME-Version: 1.0
|
|
To: cbbrowne@cbbrowne.com
|
|
cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] How much work is a native Windows application?
|
|
References: <200205091344.g49DiBp01273@saturn.janwieck.net> <3CDA820F.136D65F5@mohawksoft.com> <20020509170233.2DC5A38CB3@cbbrowne.com> <3CDAB0B3.C7375A12@mohawksoft.com> <20020509174604.89E5938D1A@cbbrowne.com>
|
|
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
|
|
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
|
|
Precedence: bulk
|
|
Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
|
|
Status: RO
|
|
|
|
cbbrowne@cbbrowne.com wrote:
|
|
>
|
|
> > cbbrowne@cbbrowne.com wrote:
|
|
> >>> I think, and I know people are probably sick of me spouting
|
|
> >>> opinions, that if you want a Windows presence for PostgreSQL, then
|
|
> >>> we should write a real Win32 version.
|
|
> >>
|
|
> >> The crucial wrong word is the word "we."
|
|
>
|
|
> >> If _you_ want a Windows presence, then _you_ should write a real
|
|
> >> Win32 version. That clearly attaches responsibility to someone who
|
|
> >> is interested.
|
|
>
|
|
> > I have already said that I am willing to write the pieces for a
|
|
> > Windows port. The issue is changes in PostgreSQL required to do it.
|
|
>
|
|
> No, I don't think you understand.
|
|
>
|
|
> If you're planning to do a port, then _all_ changes are your
|
|
> responsibility. Nobody ought to need to change PostgreSQL in order for
|
|
> you to write a Windows port; that, in fact, would be a waste of time,
|
|
> having several people working on something that should probably be done
|
|
> by one person.
|
|
|
|
Without buy-in from the group, there is no point in me wasting my time doing
|
|
all the work necessary. I'm not interested in making Mark's special version of
|
|
PostgreSQL.
|
|
|
|
If we can agree on a strategy and a course, then it is worth doing. If all the
|
|
changes made fall on the floor because the group does not like them, then I
|
|
wasted my time. Got it?
|
|
|
|
Also, doing the Windows portions of the code will represent a significant
|
|
investment of my time. I'm not interested in doing a lot of work on a shoddy
|
|
project. If you ask the core group to put out a crappy version of PostgreSQL
|
|
for a UNIX, they would fight long and hard against it. Why should we be willing
|
|
to produce a crappy version for Windows, just because the people here don't
|
|
like Windows.
|
|
|
|
I don't care about Solaris, but I understand WHY it is important to make
|
|
PostgreSQL work well on it. I don't understand why the people in this group
|
|
don't see the same purpose for a Windows port. To be honest, I think a good
|
|
Windows port will do wonders for PostgreSQL's acceptance.
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives?
|
|
|
|
http://archives.postgresql.org
|
|
|
|
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22680@postgresql.org Thu May 9 17:57:11 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22680@postgresql.org>
|
|
Received: from postgresql.org (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
|
|
by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g49LvA428333
|
|
for <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>; Thu, 9 May 2002 17:57:10 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
Received: from localhost.localdomain (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
|
|
by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP
|
|
id 348D7476690; Thu, 9 May 2002 17:57:01 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
Received: from postgresql.org (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
|
|
by postgresql.org (Postfix) with SMTP
|
|
id 64C1747675C; Thu, 9 May 2002 17:56:24 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
Received: from localhost.localdomain (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
|
|
by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF8E1476162
|
|
for <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>; Thu, 9 May 2002 17:56:13 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
Received: from rh72.home.ee (adsl1030.estpak.ee [213.168.29.11])
|
|
by postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0DEF475F1A
|
|
for <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>; Thu, 9 May 2002 17:55:09 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1])
|
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by rh72.home.ee (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g49JrRc02592;
|
|
Fri, 10 May 2002 00:53:28 +0500
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] How much work is a native Windows application?
|
|
From: Hannu Krosing <hannu@tm.ee>
|
|
To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
|
cc: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>, Jan Wieck <janwieck@yahoo.com>,
|
|
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>,
|
|
PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
In-Reply-To: <19330.1020954343@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
|
References: <200205091344.g49DiBp01273@saturn.janwieck.net>
|
|
<3CDA820F.136D65F5@mohawksoft.com> <19330.1020954343@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
|
Content-Type: text/plain
|
|
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
|
|
X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.4
|
|
Date: 10 May 2002 00:53:27 +0500
|
|
Message-ID: <1020974008.2080.65.camel@rh72.home.ee>
|
|
MIME-Version: 1.0
|
|
Precedence: bulk
|
|
Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
|
|
Status: RO
|
|
|
|
On Thu, 2002-05-09 at 19:25, Tom Lane wrote:
|
|
> mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com> writes:
|
|
> > I have used the cygwin version too. It is a waste of time. No Windows user will
|
|
> > ever accept it. No windows-only user is going to use the cygwin tools.
|
|
>
|
|
> With decent packaging, no windows-only user would even know we have
|
|
> cygwin in there. The above argument is just plain irrelevant. The real
|
|
> point is that we need a nice clean friendly GUI for both installation
|
|
> and administration --- and AFAICS that will take about the same amount of
|
|
> work to write whether the server requires cygwin internally or not.
|
|
|
|
<evil grin>
|
|
We can go the Oracle way and write a 200MB cross-platform java installer
|
|
requiring and exact version of java runtime
|
|
</evil grin>
|
|
|
|
> Rather than expending largely-pointless work on internal rewrites of
|
|
> the server, people who care about this issue ought to be thinking about
|
|
> the GUI problems.
|
|
|
|
pgAccess is quite nice (Disclaimer: I'm not a windows weenie, I run it
|
|
inside vmware/win98 IE browser test environment on my Linux workstation
|
|
;).
|
|
|
|
Why not just bundle what we've got ?
|
|
|
|
> > From a production stand point, would anyone reading this trust their
|
|
> > data to PostgreSQL running on cygwin?
|
|
>
|
|
> I wouldn't trust my data to *any* database running on a Microsoft OS.
|
|
> Period.
|
|
|
|
Do we support Xenix and SCO ?
|
|
|
|
> The above argument thus doesn't impress me at all, especially
|
|
> when it's being made without offering a shred of evidence that cygwin
|
|
> contributes any major degree of instability.
|
|
|
|
>From the comments here it seems to be either cygwin or more likely
|
|
cygipc
|
|
|
|
> I am especially unhappy about the prospect of major code revisions
|
|
> and development time spent on chasing this rather than improving our
|
|
> performance and stability on Unix-type OSes. I agree with the comment
|
|
> someone else made: that's just playing Microsoft's game.
|
|
|
|
Not!
|
|
|
|
I think that this thread is mostly about coordinating code and interface
|
|
cleanups that are likely beneficial for both *NIX and non-*NIX platforms
|
|
mainly
|
|
* cleaner support for semaphores
|
|
* separating shared and per-process data
|
|
* process creation
|
|
* (file operations)
|
|
* (init and service scripts)
|
|
if done properly none of these will degrade code quality nor
|
|
performance.
|
|
|
|
Also, having a clean interface for those will not only enable any
|
|
interested party to make windows/BeOS/OSX/QNX binaries with less effort,
|
|
it will most likely make it easier make use of advances in *NIX world
|
|
like AIO, multiprocessor systems, NUMA and distributed systems, and just
|
|
make things more robust and reliable by making code inspection easier.
|
|
|
|
---------------
|
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Hannu
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---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives?
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|
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http://archives.postgresql.org
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22694@postgresql.org Thu May 9 21:02:16 2002
|
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Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22694@postgresql.org>
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for <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>; Thu, 9 May 2002 20:59:55 -0400 (EDT)
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Received: from unknown (HELO egutierrez) (eg@eldergriffon.org@205.216.186.2 with login)
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|
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Message-ID: <00f701c1f7bd$ffdeddc0$8500005a@egutierrez>
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Reply-To: "Ernesto Gutierrez" <egutierrez@eldergriffon.org>
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From: "Ernesto Gutierrez" <egutierrez@eldergriffon.org>
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To: "mlw" <markw@mohawksoft.com>, "Tom Lane" <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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cc: "Jan Wieck" <janwieck@yahoo.com>, "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>,
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"PostgreSQL-development" <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
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References: <200205091344.g49DiBp01273@saturn.janwieck.net> <3CDA820F.136D65F5@mohawksoft.com> <19330.1020954343@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] How much work is a native Windows application?
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Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 17:59:55 -0700
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MIME-Version: 1.0
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Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
|
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Status: RO
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Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us> writes:
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> mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com> writes:
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> > I have used the cygwin version too. It is a waste of time. No Windows
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user will
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> > ever accept it. No windows-only user is going to use the cygwin tools.
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>
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> With decent packaging, no windows-only user would even know we have
|
|
> cygwin in there. The above argument is just plain irrelevant. The real
|
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> point is that we need a nice clean friendly GUI for both installation
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> and administration --- and AFAICS that will take about the same amount of
|
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> work to write whether the server requires cygwin internally or not.
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I'm afraid I agree with mlw, Tom. I don't think the problem ends at the GUI,
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although for many people it would. The issue extends at least also to
|
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support and troubleshooting. In a production environment, I have a better
|
|
chance of figuring out what's going wrong with an application written
|
|
natively for an operating system dealing directly with that operating
|
|
system. I would take a dim view of using PostgreSQL running on cygwin unless
|
|
I had extensive experience doing it, or if there were no other alternative.
|
|
|
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> > From a production stand point, would anyone reading this trust their
|
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> > data to PostgreSQL running on cygwin?
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>
|
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> I wouldn't trust my data to *any* database running on a Microsoft OS.
|
|
> Period. The above argument thus doesn't impress me at all, especially
|
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> when it's being made without offering a shred of evidence that cygwin
|
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> contributes any major degree of instability.
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If you could prove to me that cygwin doesn't contribute *any* instability,
|
|
I'd still be pretty worried, probably for the same reasons that you don't
|
|
trust any Microsoft OS. There are increased chances that something could go
|
|
critically wrong, particularly in an environment fundamentally different. I
|
|
think mlw's basic point is quite valid, that PG+cygwin will not ever find
|
|
favor with decision-makers who are used to Windows systems. Suspicion of
|
|
the other environment's foibles is common, and goes both ways.
|
|
|
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> I am especially unhappy about the prospect of major code revisions
|
|
> and development time spent on chasing this rather than improving our
|
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> performance and stability on Unix-type OSes. I agree with the comment
|
|
> someone else made: that's just playing Microsoft's game.
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There I don't deny you may be right.
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Ernie Gutierrez
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|
Walnut Creek, CA
|
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---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
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TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
|
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|
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22642@postgresql.org Thu May 9 12:49:06 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22642@postgresql.org>
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by barry.xythos.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g49GGZg09296;
|
|
Thu, 9 May 2002 09:16:35 -0700
|
|
Message-ID: <3CDAA0E3.5060706@xythos.com>
|
|
Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 09:16:35 -0700
|
|
From: Barry Lind <barry@xythos.com>
|
|
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0rc1) Gecko/20020417
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MIME-Version: 1.0
|
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To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
|
cc: "Henshall, Stuart - WCP" <SHenshall@westcountrypublications.co.uk>,
|
|
Thomas Lockhart <lockhart@fourpalms.org>, mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>,
|
|
PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>,
|
|
Jan Wieck <janwieck@yahoo.com>, "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>,
|
|
Dann Corbit <DCorbit@connx.com>, Joel Burton <joel@joelburton.com>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] PG+Cygwin Production Experience (was RE: Path to PostgreSQL
|
|
References: <E2870D8CE1CCD311BAF50008C71EDE8E01F74896@MAIL_EXCHANGE> <19035.1020952312@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
|
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
|
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|
|
Precedence: bulk
|
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Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
|
|
Status: RO
|
|
|
|
I have found this whole thread very interesting (I'm still not sure
|
|
where it is going though :-). But let me throw in some of my thoughts.
|
|
|
|
A windows version of postgres (whether native of cygwin based) is
|
|
important. I have many developers with windows as their desktop OS and
|
|
they have a postgres db installed to do development work. Postgres on
|
|
cygwin is fine for this need. While I may not trust it in a production
|
|
environment it is certainly good enough for development.
|
|
|
|
A second use we have for postgres on windows is in evals of our product.
|
|
We provide an eval version of our software as an InstallShield
|
|
installed .exe that includes our code, postgres and the necessary cygwin
|
|
parts. People doing evals just want to install the eval on their
|
|
everyday machine (most likely running windows) and it needs to be dead
|
|
simple to install. This can be done with postgres and cygwin. In this
|
|
example again the current postgres+cygwin works well enough for our
|
|
evals. Again I wouldn't run the production version in this environment,
|
|
but it is good enough for an eval.
|
|
|
|
Our eval does show that it is possible to repackage postgres plus the
|
|
parts of cygwin it needs into a nice installer and have it work. (It is
|
|
a lot of work but is certainly possible). In fact in our eval install
|
|
we even use cygrunsrv to install postgres as a windows service.
|
|
|
|
The biggest problem we have had is the fact that the utility scripts
|
|
(like pg_ctl, createdb, etc) are all shell scripts that call a whole
|
|
host of other utilities. It is pretty straight forward to package up
|
|
the postgres executable and the libraries it needs from cygwin. It is a
|
|
whole different problem making sure you have a standard unix style shell
|
|
environment with all the utilities installed so that you can run the
|
|
shell scripts.
|
|
|
|
thanks,
|
|
--Barry
|
|
|
|
Tom Lane wrote:
|
|
> "Henshall, Stuart - WCP" <SHenshall@westcountrypublications.co.uk> writes:
|
|
>
|
|
>>Cygwin is not the only additon needed, cygipc will also be needed (GPL)
|
|
>>(see: http://www.neuro.gatech.edu/users/cwilson/cygutils/cygipc/index.html )
|
|
>
|
|
>
|
|
> Good point, but is this a requirement that we could get rid of, now that
|
|
> we have the SysV IPC stuff somewhat isolated? AFAICT cygipc provides
|
|
> the SysV IPC API (shmget, semget, etc) --- but if there are usable
|
|
> equivalents in the basic Cygwin environment, we could probably use them
|
|
> now.
|
|
>
|
|
> Considering how often we see the forgot-to-start-cygipc mistake,
|
|
> removing this requirement would be a clear win.
|
|
>
|
|
> regards, tom lane
|
|
>
|
|
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
> TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
|
|
> subscribe-nomail command to majordomo@postgresql.org so that your
|
|
> message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
|
|
>
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
|
|
|
|
http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html
|
|
|
|
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22665@postgresql.org Thu May 9 15:30:11 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22665@postgresql.org>
|
|
Received: from postgresql.org (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
|
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by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g49JUA426599
|
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|
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|
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|
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|
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|
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|
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for <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>; Thu, 9 May 2002 15:24:32 -0400 (EDT)
|
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Received: from psc.progress.com (HELO saturn.janwieck.net) (janwieck@192.233.92.200 with login)
|
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by saturn.janwieck.net (8.11.2/8.11.2) id g49JKN402145;
|
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Thu, 9 May 2002 15:20:23 -0400
|
|
From: Jan Wieck <janwieck@yahoo.com>
|
|
Message-ID: <200205091920.g49JKN402145@saturn.janwieck.net>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] PG+Cygwin Production Experience (was RE: Path to PostgreSQL
|
|
In-Reply-To: <3CDAA0E3.5060706@xythos.com> from Barry Lind at "May 9, 2002 09:16:35
|
|
am"
|
|
To: Barry Lind <barry@xythos.com>
|
|
Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 15:20:23 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
cc: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>,
|
|
"Henshall, Stuart - WCP" <SHenshall@westcountrypublications.co.uk>,
|
|
Thomas Lockhart <lockhart@fourpalms.org>, mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>,
|
|
PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>,
|
|
Jan Wieck <janwieck@yahoo.com>, "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>,
|
|
Dann Corbit <DCorbit@connx.com>, Joel Burton <joel@joelburton.com>
|
|
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL68 (25)]
|
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MIME-Version: 1.0
|
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|
|
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|
|
Precedence: bulk
|
|
Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
|
|
Status: RO
|
|
|
|
Barry Lind wrote:
|
|
> I have found this whole thread very interesting (I'm still not sure
|
|
> where it is going though :-). But let me throw in some of my thoughts.
|
|
>
|
|
> A windows version of postgres (whether native of cygwin based) is
|
|
> important. I have many developers with windows as their desktop OS and
|
|
> they have a postgres db installed to do development work. Postgres on
|
|
> cygwin is fine for this need. While I may not trust it in a production
|
|
> environment it is certainly good enough for development.
|
|
>
|
|
> A second use we have for postgres on windows is in evals of our product.
|
|
> We provide an eval version of our software as an InstallShield
|
|
> installed .exe that includes our code, postgres and the necessary cygwin
|
|
> parts. People doing evals just want to install the eval on their
|
|
> everyday machine (most likely running windows) and it needs to be dead
|
|
> simple to install. This can be done with postgres and cygwin. In this
|
|
> example again the current postgres+cygwin works well enough for our
|
|
> evals. Again I wouldn't run the production version in this environment,
|
|
> but it is good enough for an eval.
|
|
>
|
|
> Our eval does show that it is possible to repackage postgres plus the
|
|
> parts of cygwin it needs into a nice installer and have it work. (It is
|
|
> a lot of work but is certainly possible). In fact in our eval install
|
|
> we even use cygrunsrv to install postgres as a windows service.
|
|
>
|
|
> The biggest problem we have had is the fact that the utility scripts
|
|
> (like pg_ctl, createdb, etc) are all shell scripts that call a whole
|
|
> host of other utilities. It is pretty straight forward to package up
|
|
> the postgres executable and the libraries it needs from cygwin. It is a
|
|
> whole different problem making sure you have a standard unix style shell
|
|
> environment with all the utilities installed so that you can run the
|
|
> shell scripts.
|
|
|
|
Do I read this right? You wrap the binary eval version of
|
|
your product, the binary PostgreSQL and CygWin including some
|
|
of the utility programs into one InstallShield .exe and ship
|
|
that?
|
|
|
|
Hmmm, PostgreSQL's license is totally fine with that. And
|
|
your program is your program. But as far as I know bundling
|
|
with CygWin like this costs money. So you pay license fees to
|
|
RedHat for shipping eval copies of your product and don't see
|
|
any value in a native Windows port? Nobel, nobel, or does
|
|
your product have such an outstanding eval/sell ratio that it
|
|
doesn't matter?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jan
|
|
|
|
>
|
|
> thanks,
|
|
> --Barry
|
|
>
|
|
> Tom Lane wrote:
|
|
> > "Henshall, Stuart - WCP" <SHenshall@westcountrypublications.co.uk> writes:
|
|
> >
|
|
> >>Cygwin is not the only additon needed, cygipc will also be needed (GPL)
|
|
> >>(see: http://www.neuro.gatech.edu/users/cwilson/cygutils/cygipc/index.html )
|
|
> >
|
|
> >
|
|
> > Good point, but is this a requirement that we could get rid of, now that
|
|
> > we have the SysV IPC stuff somewhat isolated? AFAICT cygipc provides
|
|
> > the SysV IPC API (shmget, semget, etc) --- but if there are usable
|
|
> > equivalents in the basic Cygwin environment, we could probably use them
|
|
> > now.
|
|
> >
|
|
> > Considering how often we see the forgot-to-start-cygipc mistake,
|
|
> > removing this requirement would be a clear win.
|
|
> >
|
|
> > regards, tom lane
|
|
> >
|
|
> > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
> > TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
|
|
> > subscribe-nomail command to majordomo@postgresql.org so that your
|
|
> > message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
|
|
> >
|
|
>
|
|
>
|
|
>
|
|
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
> TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
|
|
>
|
|
> http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html
|
|
>
|
|
|
|
|
|
--
|
|
|
|
#======================================================================#
|
|
# It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. #
|
|
# Let's break this rule - forgive me. #
|
|
#================================================== JanWieck@Yahoo.com #
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives?
|
|
|
|
http://archives.postgresql.org
|
|
|
|
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22643@postgresql.org Thu May 9 12:55:39 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22643@postgresql.org>
|
|
Received: from postgresql.org (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
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by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g49Gtc424128
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for <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>; Thu, 9 May 2002 12:55:38 -0400 (EDT)
|
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Received: from localhost.localdomain (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
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by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP
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|
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Received: from postgresql.org (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
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by postgresql.org (Postfix) with SMTP
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Received: from localhost.localdomain (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
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by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69ED347650F
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Received: from mail1.ihs.com (unknown [170.207.70.222])
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by mail1.ihs.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with ESMTP id g49GdO1j016176
|
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for <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>; Thu, 9 May 2002 10:39:24 -0600 (MDT)
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Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 10:34:58 -0600 (MDT)
|
|
From: Scott Marlowe <scott.marlowe@ihs.com>
|
|
To: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Subject: [HACKERS] Issues tangential to win32 support
|
|
In-Reply-To: <3CDA820F.136D65F5@mohawksoft.com>
|
|
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0205091029070.3510-100000@css120.ihs.com>
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|
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Status: RO
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|
|
|
There are some issues that the whole idea of a win32 port should bring up.
|
|
One of them is whether or not postgresql should be rewritten as a
|
|
multi-threaded app.
|
|
|
|
If postgresql will never be rewritten as a multi-threaded app, then
|
|
performance under Windows is likely to ALWAYS be slow, since that
|
|
multi-thread is the preferred model for good performance on W32. note
|
|
that many Unixes prefer multi-threaded models as well (Solaris comes to
|
|
mind) so there's the possibility that a multi-threaded postgresql could
|
|
enjoy better performance on more than just windows.
|
|
|
|
If postgresql IS going to eventually be multi-threaded, then the whole
|
|
win32 port should probably be delayed until then, since it would solve
|
|
many of the issues of fork() versus createprocess().
|
|
|
|
Just my thoughts on it.
|
|
|
|
Scott
|
|
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|
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22660@postgresql.org Thu May 9 14:31:54 2002
|
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Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22660@postgresql.org>
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Thu, 9 May 2002 12:18:26 -0600 (MDT)
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|
Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 12:13:59 -0600 (MDT)
|
|
From: Scott Marlowe <scott.marlowe@ihs.com>
|
|
To: Jan Wieck <janwieck@yahoo.com>
|
|
cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Issues tangential to win32 support
|
|
In-Reply-To: <200205091751.g49HpTi01846@saturn.janwieck.net>
|
|
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0205091207540.3940-100000@css120.ihs.com>
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Status: RO
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|
|
On Thu, 9 May 2002, Jan Wieck wrote:
|
|
|
|
> > If postgresql IS going to eventually be multi-threaded, then the whole
|
|
> > win32 port should probably be delayed until then, since it would solve
|
|
> > many of the issues of fork() versus createprocess().
|
|
>
|
|
> If multi-threading is the plan, then there is light at the
|
|
> end of the tunnel ... the upcoming train...
|
|
|
|
That's a bit extreme don't you think? I'm not fan of multi-threading as
|
|
the one true way, and since I use linux as my server for postgresql, there
|
|
is no gain for me in a multi-threaded model. In fact, I'd prefer
|
|
postgresql stay multi-process for robustness.
|
|
|
|
BUT, if there are plans to go multi-thread, or could be plans, then those
|
|
should take priority over how to port to windows, since making postgresql
|
|
multi-threaded will change it so much as to make the current "how do we
|
|
port to windows" thread meaningless.
|
|
|
|
One of the primary reasons given for avoiding cygwin is that postgresql
|
|
runs so slowly under it on windows, but I submit that it probably won't
|
|
run a heck of a lot faster if it was written as a native app as long as
|
|
it's running as a multi-process design. Since there's probably no great
|
|
gain to be had from moving it out from under cygwin, why bother?
|
|
|
|
My vote would be to stay multi-process and Unix compatible. I have no
|
|
real use for windows as a server, and do NOT want to sacrifice the
|
|
performance / reliability I have with postgresql under Linux for a windows
|
|
port.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
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TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives?
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|
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|
http://archives.postgresql.org
|
|
|
|
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22683@postgresql.org Thu May 9 18:20:10 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22683@postgresql.org>
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by rh72.home.ee (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g49KF2c02624;
|
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Fri, 10 May 2002 01:15:06 +0500
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Issues tangential to win32 support
|
|
From: Hannu Krosing <hannu@tm.ee>
|
|
To: Dann Corbit <DCorbit@connx.com>
|
|
cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
<D90A5A6C612A39408103E6ECDD77B82920CE10@voyager.corporate.connx.com>
|
|
<D90A5A6C612A39408103E6ECDD77B82920CE10@voyager.corporate.connx.com>
|
|
Content-Type: text/plain
|
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Date: 10 May 2002 01:15:02 +0500
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|
|
MIME-Version: 1.0
|
|
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|
|
Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
|
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Status: RO
|
|
|
|
On Fri, 2002-05-10 at 02:33, Dann Corbit wrote:
|
|
>
|
|
> It took a few hundred man hours to do it.
|
|
|
|
About 2-8 weeks for one full time programmer ?
|
|
|
|
> I see the whole Win32 port as
|
|
> a non issue. Several parties have already completed it (including the
|
|
> place where I work -- CONNX Solutions Inc.). If we did not do it or all
|
|
> parties who already did it were hit by a comet or something, someone
|
|
> else would accomplish it. It isn't trivial but it isn't impossible
|
|
> either. If a need is large enough, someone will manage it. The need is
|
|
> large enough. Ergo...
|
|
|
|
Do you know which of these run ((reasonably) well) on win9x ?
|
|
|
|
> Here are some other things related:
|
|
>
|
|
> A ready to go Win32 PosgreSQL package:
|
|
> http://www.dbexperts.net/postgresql
|
|
|
|
Perhaps we should back up and let dbexperts et.al. recover their costs
|
|
and after that repent and commit changes back to main tree ;)
|
|
|
|
## insert a little ad-hominem attack to everyone objecting a native
|
|
## win32 port as owning stock in some win32-pg-selling company
|
|
|
|
BTW, do they have an evaluation version or do they think that people
|
|
would in that case evaluate on win32 and then buy a cheap linux box for
|
|
$495.- :)
|
|
|
|
--------------------
|
|
Hannu
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
|
|
|
|
http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html
|
|
|
|
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22676@postgresql.org Thu May 9 17:36:50 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22676@postgresql.org>
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|
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Issues tangential to win32 support
|
|
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|
|
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Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 14:33:40 -0700
|
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Message-ID: <D90A5A6C612A39408103E6ECDD77B82920CE10@voyager.corporate.connx.com>
|
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Thread-Topic: [HACKERS] Issues tangential to win32 support
|
|
Thread-Index: AcH3nsEyepyPj/gRTNiZtJugpq+PAQAAduvQ
|
|
From: "Dann Corbit" <DCorbit@connx.com>
|
|
To: "PostgreSQL-development" <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Precedence: bulk
|
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|
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Status: RO
|
|
|
|
> -----Original Message-----
|
|
> From: Hannu Krosing [mailto:hannu@tm.ee]
|
|
> Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 12:10 PM
|
|
> To: Jan Wieck
|
|
> Cc: Scott Marlowe; PostgreSQL-development
|
|
> Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Issues tangential to win32 support
|
|
>
|
|
>
|
|
> On Thu, 2002-05-09 at 22:51, Jan Wieck wrote:
|
|
> > Scott Marlowe wrote:
|
|
> > > There are some issues that the whole idea of a win32 port
|
|
> should bring up.
|
|
> > > One of them is whether or not postgresql should be rewritten as a
|
|
> > > multi-threaded app.
|
|
> >
|
|
> > Please, don't add this one to it.
|
|
> >
|
|
> > I'm all for the native Windows port, yes, but I've discussed
|
|
> > the multi-thread questions for days at Great Bridge, then
|
|
> > again with my new employer, with people on shows and whatnot.
|
|
> >
|
|
> > Anything in the whole backend is designed with a multi-
|
|
> > process model in mind. You'll not do that in any reasonable
|
|
> > amount of time.
|
|
>
|
|
> IIRC you are replying to the man who _has_ actually don this ?
|
|
>
|
|
> Perhaps using an unreasonable amount of time but still ... :)
|
|
|
|
It took a few hundred man hours to do it. I see the whole Win32 port as
|
|
a non issue. Several parties have already completed it (including the
|
|
place where I work -- CONNX Solutions Inc.). If we did not do it or all
|
|
parties who already did it were hit by a comet or something, someone
|
|
else would accomplish it. It isn't trivial but it isn't impossible
|
|
either. If a need is large enough, someone will manage it. The need is
|
|
large enough. Ergo...
|
|
|
|
Here are some other things related:
|
|
|
|
A ready to go Win32 PosgreSQL package:
|
|
http://www.dbexperts.net/postgresql
|
|
|
|
An open source project to productize PostgreSQL for Windows (has gone
|
|
nowhere so far):
|
|
http://gborg.postgresql.org/project/winpackage/projdisplay.php
|
|
|
|
A native Win32 port accomplished by a Japanese Group:
|
|
http://hp.vector.co.jp/authors/VA023283/PostgreSQLe.html
|
|
If you look under the "Gists for Patch" it contains exactly the same
|
|
tasks that CONNX Solutions Inc. had to accomplish in every case.
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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|
TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command
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|
(send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to majordomo@postgresql.org)
|
|
|
|
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22677@postgresql.org Thu May 9 17:48:03 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22677@postgresql.org>
|
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Thu, 9 May 2002 17:41:37 -0400
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Message-ID: <3CDAED09.E890975B@mohawksoft.com>
|
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Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 17:41:29 -0400
|
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From: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>
|
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To: Dann Corbit <DCorbit@connx.com>
|
|
cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Issues tangential to win32 support
|
|
References: <D90A5A6C612A39408103E6ECDD77B82920CE10@voyager.corporate.connx.com>
|
|
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|
|
|
Dann Corbit wrote:
|
|
> It took a few hundred man hours to do it. I see the whole Win32 port as
|
|
> a non issue. Several parties have already completed it (including the
|
|
> place where I work -- CONNX Solutions Inc.). If we did not do it or all
|
|
> parties who already did it were hit by a comet or something, someone
|
|
> else would accomplish it. It isn't trivial but it isn't impossible
|
|
> either. If a need is large enough, someone will manage it. The need is
|
|
> large enough. Ergo...
|
|
>
|
|
> Here are some other things related:
|
|
>
|
|
> A ready to go Win32 PosgreSQL package:
|
|
> http://www.dbexperts.net/postgresql
|
|
>
|
|
> An open source project to productize PostgreSQL for Windows (has gone
|
|
> nowhere so far):
|
|
> http://gborg.postgresql.org/project/winpackage/projdisplay.php
|
|
>
|
|
> A native Win32 port accomplished by a Japanese Group:
|
|
> http://hp.vector.co.jp/authors/VA023283/PostgreSQLe.html
|
|
> If you look under the "Gists for Patch" it contains exactly the same
|
|
> tasks that CONNX Solutions Inc. had to accomplish in every case.
|
|
|
|
These packages are based upon cygwin. Problems with cygwin:
|
|
|
|
(1) GNU license issues.
|
|
(2) Does not work well with anti-virus software
|
|
(3) Since OS level copy-on-write is negated, process creation is much slower.
|
|
(4) Since OS level copy on write is negated, memory that otherwise would not be
|
|
allocated to the process is forced to ba allocated when the parent process data
|
|
is copied.
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
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TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives?
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|
|
|
http://archives.postgresql.org
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|
|
|
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22679@postgresql.org Thu May 9 17:53:53 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22679@postgresql.org>
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Issues tangential to win32 support
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Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 14:51:50 -0700
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Message-ID: <D90A5A6C612A39408103E6ECDD77B82920CE12@voyager.corporate.connx.com>
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Thread-Topic: Issues tangential to win32 support
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Thread-Index: AcH3oxZJFXJ0zN07QyKdZT4UsSj7LQAAB7dA
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From: "Dann Corbit" <DCorbit@connx.com>
|
|
To: "mlw" <markw@mohawksoft.com>
|
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cc: "PostgreSQL-development" <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
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Precedence: bulk
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Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
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X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by candle.pha.pa.us id g49Lrq428243
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Status: RO
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|
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> -----Original Message-----
|
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> From: mlw [mailto:markw@mohawksoft.com]
|
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> Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 2:41 PM
|
|
> To: Dann Corbit
|
|
> Cc: PostgreSQL-development
|
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> Subject: Re: Issues tangential to win32 support
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>
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>
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> Dann Corbit wrote:
|
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> > It took a few hundred man hours to do it. I see the whole
|
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> Win32 port as
|
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> > a non issue. Several parties have already completed it
|
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> (including the
|
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> > place where I work -- CONNX Solutions Inc.). If we did not
|
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> do it or all
|
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> > parties who already did it were hit by a comet or something, someone
|
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> > else would accomplish it. It isn't trivial but it isn't impossible
|
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> > either. If a need is large enough, someone will manage it.
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> The need is
|
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> > large enough. Ergo...
|
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> >
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> > Here are some other things related:
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> >
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> > A ready to go Win32 PosgreSQL package:
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> > http://www.dbexperts.net/postgresql
|
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> >
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|
> > An open source project to productize PostgreSQL for Windows
|
|
> (has gone
|
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> > nowhere so far):
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> > http://gborg.postgresql.org/project/winpackage/projdisplay.php
|
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> >
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> > A native Win32 port accomplished by a Japanese Group:
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|
> > http://hp.vector.co.jp/authors/VA023283/PostgreSQLe.html
|
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> > If you look under the "Gists for Patch" it contains exactly the same
|
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> > tasks that CONNX Solutions Inc. had to accomplish in every case.
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>
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> These packages are based upon cygwin. Problems with cygwin:
|
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>
|
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> (1) GNU license issues.
|
|
> (2) Does not work well with anti-virus software
|
|
> (3) Since OS level copy-on-write is negated, process creation
|
|
> is much slower.
|
|
> (4) Since OS level copy on write is negated, memory that
|
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> otherwise would not be
|
|
> allocated to the process is forced to ba allocated when the
|
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> parent process data
|
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> is copied.
|
|
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Our package avoids Cygwin altogether. We wrote our own POSIX layer from
|
|
scratch, and we junked fork() for CreateProcess() {and inserted copious:
|
|
#ifdef ICKY_WIN32_KLUDGE
|
|
/* our code goes here */
|
|
#else
|
|
/* Standard UNIX code goes here */
|
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#endif
|
|
|
|
It's complete, and it performs like the burning blue blazes. We have
|
|
run the full PostgreSQL test suite to completion with success. However,
|
|
before we release any SQL tool, we have our own test suite with tens of
|
|
thousands of tests to perform. Hence, we won't have a release until
|
|
June at the earliest.
|
|
|
|
I think the Japanese one also does not use Cygwin (but I have not tried
|
|
installing it yet).
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
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http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22681@postgresql.org Thu May 9 18:02:06 2002
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Thu, 9 May 2002 17:56:01 -0400
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Message-ID: <3CDAF071.CF3DAB58@mohawksoft.com>
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Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 17:56:01 -0400
|
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From: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>
|
|
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-SMP-020426 i686)
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To: Dann Corbit <DCorbit@connx.com>
|
|
cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Issues tangential to win32 support
|
|
References: <D90A5A6C612A39408103E6ECDD77B82920CE12@voyager.corporate.connx.com>
|
|
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
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Status: RO
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|
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Dann Corbit wrote:
|
|
> Our package avoids Cygwin altogether. We wrote our own POSIX layer from
|
|
> scratch, and we junked fork() for CreateProcess() {and inserted copious:
|
|
> #ifdef ICKY_WIN32_KLUDGE
|
|
> /* our code goes here */
|
|
> #else
|
|
> /* Standard UNIX code goes here */
|
|
> #endif
|
|
|
|
OK, what sorts of things did you do in your ICKY_WIN32_KLUDGE? Were they ever
|
|
migrated back into the main tree? Did you simulate fork() or a stand-alone?
|
|
|
|
I know Windows very well, but I have thus far remained ignorant of PostgreSQL
|
|
internals.
|
|
|
|
>
|
|
> It's complete, and it performs like the burning blue blazes. We have
|
|
> run the full PostgreSQL test suite to completion with success. However,
|
|
> before we release any SQL tool, we have our own test suite with tens of
|
|
> thousands of tests to perform. Hence, we won't have a release until
|
|
> June at the earliest.
|
|
>
|
|
> I think the Japanese one also does not use Cygwin (but I have not tried
|
|
> installing it yet).
|
|
|
|
The japanese site claims cygwin.
|
|
|
|
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22682@postgresql.org Thu May 9 18:17:03 2002
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Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22682@postgresql.org>
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Issues tangential to win32 support
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content-class: urn:content-classes:message
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Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 15:10:43 -0700
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Message-ID: <D90A5A6C612A39408103E6ECDD77B82920CE13@voyager.corporate.connx.com>
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Thread-Topic: Issues tangential to win32 support
|
|
Thread-Index: AcH3pRcvhdfkS6Z+SXCu6lfzMZH4qAAAK5Cw
|
|
From: "Dann Corbit" <DCorbit@connx.com>
|
|
To: "mlw" <markw@mohawksoft.com>
|
|
cc: <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
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> -----Original Message-----
|
|
> From: mlw [mailto:markw@mohawksoft.com]
|
|
> Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 2:56 PM
|
|
> To: Dann Corbit
|
|
> Cc: PostgreSQL-development
|
|
> Subject: Re: Issues tangential to win32 support
|
|
>
|
|
>
|
|
> Dann Corbit wrote:
|
|
> > Our package avoids Cygwin altogether. We wrote our own
|
|
> POSIX layer from
|
|
> > scratch, and we junked fork() for CreateProcess() {and
|
|
> inserted copious:
|
|
> > #ifdef ICKY_WIN32_KLUDGE
|
|
> > /* our code goes here */
|
|
> > #else
|
|
> > /* Standard UNIX code goes here */
|
|
> > #endif
|
|
>
|
|
> OK, what sorts of things did you do in your
|
|
> ICKY_WIN32_KLUDGE? Were they ever
|
|
> migrated back into the main tree? Did you simulate fork() or
|
|
> a stand-alone?
|
|
|
|
I explained it in another mail.
|
|
|
|
We had quite a few changes we had to make (several hundred man-hours,
|
|
about half of which was the POSIX layer and the precise time routines).
|
|
|
|
No sense trying to simulate fork() -- it stinks on Win32. The Cygwin
|
|
and PW32 implementations of fork() are dogs. Smarter folks than us
|
|
tried it and failed miserably. Why reinvent a broken wheel? We use
|
|
create process and our own startup code. Our version is competitive
|
|
with fork() on Linux for spawning tasks and in general the queries run
|
|
considerably faster.
|
|
|
|
> I know Windows very well, but I have thus far remained
|
|
> ignorant of PostgreSQL
|
|
> internals.
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22684@postgresql.org Thu May 9 18:34:44 2002
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Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22684@postgresql.org>
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Issues tangential to win32 support
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content-class: urn:content-classes:message
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Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 15:31:14 -0700
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Message-ID: <D90A5A6C612A39408103E6ECDD77B82906F443@voyager.corporate.connx.com>
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Thread-Topic: Issues tangential to win32 support
|
|
Thread-Index: AcH3pRcvhdfkS6Z+SXCu6lfzMZH4qAAA0jKA
|
|
From: "Dann Corbit" <DCorbit@connx.com>
|
|
To: "mlw" <markw@mohawksoft.com>
|
|
cc: "PostgreSQL-development" <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
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Status: RO
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> -----Original Message-----
|
|
> From: mlw [mailto:markw@mohawksoft.com]
|
|
> Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 2:56 PM
|
|
> To: Dann Corbit
|
|
> Cc: PostgreSQL-development
|
|
> Subject: Re: Issues tangential to win32 support
|
|
>
|
|
>
|
|
> Dann Corbit wrote:
|
|
> > Our package avoids Cygwin altogether. We wrote our own
|
|
> POSIX layer from
|
|
> > scratch, and we junked fork() for CreateProcess() {and
|
|
> inserted copious:
|
|
> > #ifdef ICKY_WIN32_KLUDGE
|
|
> > /* our code goes here */
|
|
> > #else
|
|
> > /* Standard UNIX code goes here */
|
|
> > #endif
|
|
>
|
|
> OK, what sorts of things did you do in your
|
|
> ICKY_WIN32_KLUDGE? Were they ever
|
|
> migrated back into the main tree? Did you simulate fork() or
|
|
> a stand-alone?
|
|
>
|
|
> I know Windows very well, but I have thus far remained
|
|
> ignorant of PostgreSQL
|
|
> internals.
|
|
>
|
|
> >
|
|
> > It's complete, and it performs like the burning blue
|
|
> blazes. We have
|
|
> > run the full PostgreSQL test suite to completion with
|
|
> success. However,
|
|
> > before we release any SQL tool, we have our own test suite
|
|
> with tens of
|
|
> > thousands of tests to perform. Hence, we won't have a release until
|
|
> > June at the earliest.
|
|
> >
|
|
> > I think the Japanese one also does not use Cygwin (but I
|
|
> have not tried
|
|
> > installing it yet).
|
|
>
|
|
> The japanese site claims cygwin.
|
|
|
|
This is not correct. (Fortunately, we have someone here who reads and
|
|
writes Japanese).
|
|
At any rate, it is a complete, native implementation of PostgreSQL
|
|
without any need for Cygwin.
|
|
Just to be sure, I did a "depends" on each of the binaries and none of
|
|
them use Cywin.
|
|
|
|
So the Japanese site did exactly the same thing that we did.
|
|
|
|
Here are bitmaps showing the complete dependency trees of both the
|
|
Japanese efforts and ours as well:
|
|
Us:
|
|
ftp://cap.connx.com/pub/chess-engines/new-approach/connx.bmp
|
|
|
|
Japanese:
|
|
ftp://cap.connx.com/pub/chess-engines/new-approach/japanese.bmp
|
|
|
|
No Cygwin in sight in either case.
|
|
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22685@postgresql.org Thu May 9 18:39:40 2002
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Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22685@postgresql.org>
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Thu, 9 May 2002 18:33:50 -0400
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Message-ID: <3CDAF94E.2F60382E@mohawksoft.com>
|
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Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 18:33:50 -0400
|
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From: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>
|
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X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-SMP-020426 i686)
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To: Dann Corbit <DCorbit@connx.com>
|
|
cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Issues tangential to win32 support
|
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References: <D90A5A6C612A39408103E6ECDD77B82906F443@voyager.corporate.connx.com>
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Dann Corbit wrote:
|
|
http://hp.vector.co.jp/authors/VA023283/PostgreSQLe.html
|
|
|
|
Mentions cygwin, am I misunderstanding?
|
|
|
|
Does not matter, the issue is that you guys said you did it. OK, have you been
|
|
able to bring the changed back into the main source tree? (Are you not trying?)
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives?
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http://archives.postgresql.org
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22686@postgresql.org Thu May 9 18:46:24 2002
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Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22686@postgresql.org>
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Received: from voyager.corporate.connx.com (unknown [209.20.248.131])
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for <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>; Thu, 9 May 2002 18:44:49 -0400 (EDT)
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MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Type: text/plain;
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Issues tangential to win32 support
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content-class: urn:content-classes:message
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X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.4712.0
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Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 15:43:47 -0700
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Message-ID: <D90A5A6C612A39408103E6ECDD77B82920CE16@voyager.corporate.connx.com>
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Thread-Topic: Issues tangential to win32 support
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Thread-Index: AcH3ql/GnGAJD4NhSHug0+KSRuGWRAAAAz7Q
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From: "Dann Corbit" <DCorbit@connx.com>
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To: "mlw" <markw@mohawksoft.com>
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cc: "PostgreSQL-development" <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
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Precedence: bulk
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Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
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X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by candle.pha.pa.us id g49MkN428851
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Status: RO
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> -----Original Message-----
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> From: mlw [mailto:markw@mohawksoft.com]
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> Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 3:34 PM
|
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> To: Dann Corbit
|
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> Cc: PostgreSQL-development
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> Subject: Re: Issues tangential to win32 support
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>
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>
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> Dann Corbit wrote:
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> http://hp.vector.co.jp/authors/VA023283/PostgreSQLe.html
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>
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> Mentions cygwin, am I misunderstanding?
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>
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> Does not matter, the issue is that you guys said you did it.
|
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> OK, have you been
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> able to bring the changed back into the main source tree?
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> (Are you not trying?)
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I am not enrolled in the CVS project, and don't even know how to use it.
|
|
We use "Visual Source Safe" here -- really an icky tool but at least
|
|
everyone here knows it.
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|
|
There is some debate here as to whether to keep the changes private or
|
|
to turn them back to the project. Not sure how it will turn out.
|
|
|
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I am not sure that the project would want them anyway, since the
|
|
represent some pretty major surgery and impact the readability of the
|
|
code in a quite adverse way.
|
|
|
|
At any rate, the Japanese version appears to be released. In fact, I
|
|
have downloaded the whole project and gave it a spin. It is actually
|
|
very nice. If you just need to use something for right now, why not go
|
|
with that version?
|
|
|
|
In any case, there is simply no way possible that anything will ever
|
|
escape from here before June at the absolute earliest (full regression
|
|
test is company policy).
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|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22687@postgresql.org Thu May 9 18:57:40 2002
|
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Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22687@postgresql.org>
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for <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>; Thu, 9 May 2002 18:57:40 -0400 (EDT)
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Received: from localhost.localdomain (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
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id 48E914767D3; Thu, 9 May 2002 18:57:28 -0400 (EDT)
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for <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>; Thu, 9 May 2002 18:56:51 -0400 (EDT)
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Received: from snoopy.mohawksoft.com (h0050bf7a618d.ne.client2.attbi.com [24.147.138.78])
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by postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77DAA475C93
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for <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>; Thu, 9 May 2002 18:56:50 -0400 (EDT)
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Received: from mohawksoft.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
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by snoopy.mohawksoft.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g49MpWt30673;
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Thu, 9 May 2002 18:51:36 -0400
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Message-ID: <3CDAFD74.177491F2@mohawksoft.com>
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Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 18:51:32 -0400
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From: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>
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X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-SMP-020426 i686)
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X-Accept-Language: en
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MIME-Version: 1.0
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To: Dann Corbit <DCorbit@connx.com>
|
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cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Issues tangential to win32 support
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References: <D90A5A6C612A39408103E6ECDD77B82920CE16@voyager.corporate.connx.com>
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Precedence: bulk
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Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
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Status: RO
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|
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Dann Corbit wrote:
|
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> I am not enrolled in the CVS project, and don't even know how to use it.
|
|
> We use "Visual Source Safe" here -- really an icky tool but at least
|
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> everyone here knows it.
|
|
|
|
Source Safe? Yikes. I haven't used that in a long time.
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|
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>
|
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> There is some debate here as to whether to keep the changes private or
|
|
> to turn them back to the project. Not sure how it will turn out.
|
|
>
|
|
> I am not sure that the project would want them anyway, since the
|
|
> represent some pretty major surgery and impact the readability of the
|
|
> code in a quite adverse way.
|
|
|
|
I hear you on that. I have tons of code that has #ifdef GCC and #ifdef WIN32 in
|
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lots of places.
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|
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Obviously you wrap what you can in macros and/or functions, but you can't do
|
|
that 100% the time. Some people REALLY hate #ifdef/#endif and view them as a
|
|
bad coding practice. Others, like myself, view them as a proper usage of the
|
|
language constructs and judicious use of them actually help the developer
|
|
understand the code better.
|
|
|
|
>
|
|
> At any rate, the Japanese version appears to be released. In fact, I
|
|
> have downloaded the whole project and gave it a spin. It is actually
|
|
> very nice. If you just need to use something for right now, why not go
|
|
> with that version?
|
|
|
|
I have no desire for a Windows version for myself, but I see the need for it.
|
|
|
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>
|
|
> In any case, there is simply no way possible that anything will ever
|
|
> escape from here before June at the absolute earliest (full regression
|
|
> test is company policy).
|
|
|
|
ok
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
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TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
|
|
subscribe-nomail command to majordomo@postgresql.org so that your
|
|
message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
|
|
|
|
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22697@postgresql.org Thu May 9 21:51:20 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22697@postgresql.org>
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for <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>; Thu, 9 May 2002 21:51:19 -0400 (EDT)
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(envelope-from t-ishii@sra.co.jp)
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Fri, 10 May 2002 10:50:25 +0900
|
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To: markw@mohawksoft.com
|
|
cc: DCorbit@connx.com, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Issues tangential to win32 support
|
|
In-Reply-To: <3CDAF94E.2F60382E@mohawksoft.com>
|
|
References: <D90A5A6C612A39408103E6ECDD77B82906F443@voyager.corporate.connx.com>
|
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<3CDAF94E.2F60382E@mohawksoft.com>
|
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X-Mailer: Mew version 1.94.2 on Emacs 20.7 / Mule 4.1
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=?iso-2022-jp?B?KBskQjAqGyhCKQ==?=
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Message-ID: <20020510104904P.t-ishii@sra.co.jp>
|
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Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 10:49:04 +0900
|
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From: Tatsuo Ishii <t-ishii@sra.co.jp>
|
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X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140)
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Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
|
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Status: RO
|
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|
|
> Dann Corbit wrote:
|
|
> http://hp.vector.co.jp/authors/VA023283/PostgreSQLe.html
|
|
>
|
|
> Mentions cygwin, am I misunderstanding?
|
|
|
|
Are you talking about following in the page?
|
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----------------------------------------------------------------
|
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* Notice: Based upon the GNU-cygwin, there is a version that works
|
|
similar to the Unix-compatible operability. Tanida-san Web site is
|
|
supporting this environment in Japanese.
|
|
----------------------------------------------------------------
|
|
|
|
It cleary refers to another work.
|
|
--
|
|
Tatsuo Ishii
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|
|
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---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
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TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
|
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|
|
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22721@postgresql.org Fri May 10 10:04:20 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22721@postgresql.org>
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|
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by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g4AE4J417221
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for <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>; Fri, 10 May 2002 10:04:19 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
Received: from localhost.localdomain (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
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by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP
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for <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>; Fri, 10 May 2002 09:59:26 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
Received: from salem.vale-housing.co.uk (mailgate.vale-housing.co.uk [193.195.77.162])
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by postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDEE5475F77
|
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for <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>; Fri, 10 May 2002 09:55:50 -0400 (EDT)
|
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Subject: [HACKERS] FW: Cygwin PostgreSQL Information and Suggestions
|
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Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 14:55:53 +0100
|
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MIME-Version: 1.0
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|
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|
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Thread-Topic: Cygwin PostgreSQL Information and Suggestions
|
|
Thread-Index: AcH4KhqAuSFbFlyoSAuLblrF7gO4DQAACK+w
|
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From: "Dave Page" <dpage@vale-housing.co.uk>
|
|
To: <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
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cc: <Jason@tishler.net>
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Precedence: bulk
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X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by candle.pha.pa.us id g4AE4J417221
|
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Status: RO
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|
|
Some comments from Jason Tishler the Cygwin-PostgreSQL maintainer...
|
|
|
|
> -----Original Message-----
|
|
> From: Jason Tishler [mailto:jason@tishler.net]
|
|
> Sent: 10 May 2002 15:00
|
|
> To: Dave Page
|
|
> Cc: pgsql-cygwin@postgresql.org
|
|
> Subject: Cygwin PostgreSQL Information and Suggestions
|
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>
|
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>
|
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> Dave,
|
|
>
|
|
> Would you forward this to pgsql-hackers since I'm not subscribed?
|
|
>
|
|
> On Thu, May 09, 2002 at 10:45:42PM +0100, Dave Page wrote:
|
|
> > > -----Original Message-----
|
|
> > > From: Jason Tishler [mailto:jason@tishler.net]
|
|
> > > Sent: 09 May 2002 21:52
|
|
> > > To: Dave Page
|
|
> > >
|
|
> > > On Thu, May 09, 2002 at 07:51:33PM +0100, Dave Page wrote:
|
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> > > > BTW Are you aware there is currently a rather busy thread
|
|
> > > > about native Windows/Beos ports on -hackers...
|
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> > >
|
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> > > No, I'm not subscribed, but I just read all that I could find
|
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> > > in the archives.
|
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> > > [snip]
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> > >
|
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> > > > ...which is currently drifting towards a cutdown Cygwin version?
|
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> > >
|
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> > > Maybe I'll be out of (another) job soon? :,)
|
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> >
|
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> > [snip]
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> >
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> > Personnally, I think (from a 'good for PostgreSQL' rather
|
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> than 'good
|
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> > for Cygwin' perspective) that the way forward is a Cygwin
|
|
> based system
|
|
> > but using a tailored downloader/installer that installs the system
|
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> > 'like a Windows app' (and quickly & easily etc.) rather than the
|
|
> > current way which is Windows 'being' *nix. I think that's very
|
|
> > offputting for many potential users (as others have said on the
|
|
> > -hackers thread).
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|
>
|
|
> I agree with the above, but more can be done with Cygwin and
|
|
> its setup.exe that can give a fair amount of bang for the
|
|
> buck for some good short time gains too. I will give some
|
|
> details below.
|
|
>
|
|
> I also wanted to dispel some misinformation (IMO) that I
|
|
> perceived from the above mentioned posts and/or elaborate on
|
|
> some of the items:
|
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>
|
|
> 1. Cygwin's setup.exe supports categories and dependencies.
|
|
> Hence, there is no reason to install all Cygwin packages in
|
|
> order to ensure properly PostgreSQL operation. Someone just
|
|
> has to determine what is the minimal set of packages
|
|
> necessary for PostgreSQL and I will update the setup.hint
|
|
> accordingly. The current setup.hint is as follows:
|
|
>
|
|
> sdesc: "PostgreSQL Data Base Management System"
|
|
> category: Database
|
|
> requires: ash cygwin readline zlib libreadline5
|
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>
|
|
> Sorry, but since I install all Cygwin packages plus about 30
|
|
> additional ones I haven't desire to determine what are the
|
|
> minimal requirements.
|
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>
|
|
> 2. Cygwin's setup.exe is customizable. There is a tool
|
|
> called "upset" that generates the setup.ini file that drives
|
|
> setup.exe. PostgreSQL could offer a customized setup. For
|
|
> example, this is what the XEmacs folks are doing.
|
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>
|
|
> 3. Cygwin's setup.exe can run package specific postinstall
|
|
> scripts during the installation. Hence, someone could
|
|
> automate the steps enumerated (e.g., postmaster NT service
|
|
> installation, initdb, etc.) in my README:
|
|
>
|
|
|
|
http://www.tishler.net/jason/software/postgresql/postgresql-7.2.1.README
|
|
|
|
to ease the installation burden.
|
|
|
|
4. Cygwin PostgreSQL is perceived to have poor performance. I have
|
|
never done any benchmarks regarding this issue, but apparently Terry
|
|
Carlin (from the defunct Great Bridge) did:
|
|
|
|
http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-cygwin/2001-08/msg00029.php
|
|
|
|
Specifically, he indicates the following:
|
|
|
|
BTW, Up through 40 users, PostgreSQL under CYGWIN using the TPC-C
|
|
benchmark performed very much the same as Linux PostgreSQL on the
|
|
exact hardware.
|
|
|
|
5. Cygwin PostgreSQL is perceived to have poor reliability.
|
|
Unfortunately, I have not been able to gather data to concur or refute
|
|
this perception due a sudden job "change" last summer. :,) However,
|
|
there are reports such as the following on the pgsql-cygwin list:
|
|
|
|
http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-cygwin/2002-04/msg00021.php
|
|
|
|
IMO, the biggest reliability issue with Cygwin PostgreSQL is it's
|
|
dependency on cygipc. There is some very recent work to create a Cygwin
|
|
daemon to support features such as System V IPC. So soon the cygipc
|
|
dependency and its "problems" will be going way.
|
|
|
|
Those interested in a "Windows" PostgreSQL should possibly consider
|
|
contributing in this area or other "hard edges" (due to Windows-isms)
|
|
that would improve the reliability of Cygwin PostgreSQL. BTW, I have
|
|
found the Cygwin core developers very responsive to PostgreSQL problems
|
|
because it drives the Cygwin DLL harder than most other applications.
|
|
|
|
6. Satisfying the Cygwin license for binary distribution is very simple.
|
|
Just include the source for the Cygwin DLL and all executables that are
|
|
linked with it in your distribution package. It is really that easy.
|
|
|
|
Jason
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
|
|
|
|
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22731@postgresql.org Fri May 10 12:36:48 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22731@postgresql.org>
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|
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Fri, 10 May 2002 12:31:06 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
To: "Dave Page" <dpage@vale-housing.co.uk>
|
|
cc: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org, Jason@tishler.net
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] FW: Cygwin PostgreSQL Information and Suggestions
|
|
In-Reply-To: <214E9C0A75426D47A876A2FD8A07426E66B4@salem.vale-housing.co.uk>
|
|
References: <214E9C0A75426D47A876A2FD8A07426E66B4@salem.vale-housing.co.uk>
|
|
Comments: In-reply-to "Dave Page" <dpage@vale-housing.co.uk>
|
|
message dated "Fri, 10 May 2002 14:55:53 +0100"
|
|
Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 12:31:06 -0400
|
|
Message-ID: <28995.1021048266@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
|
From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
|
Precedence: bulk
|
|
Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
|
|
Status: RO
|
|
|
|
"Dave Page" <dpage@vale-housing.co.uk> forwards:
|
|
> 4. Cygwin PostgreSQL is perceived to have poor performance. I have
|
|
> never done any benchmarks regarding this issue, but apparently Terry
|
|
> Carlin (from the defunct Great Bridge) did:
|
|
|
|
> http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-cygwin/2001-08/msg00029.php
|
|
|
|
> Specifically, he indicates the following:
|
|
|
|
> BTW, Up through 40 users, PostgreSQL under CYGWIN using the TPC-C
|
|
> benchmark performed very much the same as Linux PostgreSQL on the
|
|
> exact hardware.
|
|
|
|
It should be noted that the benchmark Terry is describing fires up
|
|
N concurrent backends and then measures the runtime for a specific query
|
|
workload. So it's not measuring connection startup time, which is
|
|
alleged by some to be Cygwin's weak spot. Nonetheless, I invite the
|
|
Postgres-on-Cygwin-isn't-worth-our-time camp to produce some benchmarks
|
|
supporting their position. I'm getting tired of reading unsubstantiated
|
|
assertions.
|
|
|
|
regards, tom lane
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
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subscribe-nomail command to majordomo@postgresql.org so that your
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22748@postgresql.org Fri May 10 17:51:28 2002
|
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Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22748@postgresql.org>
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Sat, 11 May 2002 00:48:15 +0500
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Native Win32, How about this?
|
|
From: Hannu Krosing <hannu@tm.ee>
|
|
To: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>
|
|
cc: Jan Wieck <janwieck@yahoo.com>, Jean-Michel POURE <jm.poure@freesurf.fr>,
|
|
Justin Clift <justin@postgresql.org>, "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>,
|
|
Iavor Raytchev <iavor.raytchev@verysmall.org>,
|
|
PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
In-Reply-To: <3CDC3AAE.E39FF877@mohawksoft.com>
|
|
References: <3CDC3AAE.E39FF877@mohawksoft.com>
|
|
Content-Type: text/plain
|
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X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.4
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Date: 11 May 2002 00:48:12 +0500
|
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|
|
MIME-Version: 1.0
|
|
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|
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Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
|
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Status: RO
|
|
|
|
On Sat, 2002-05-11 at 02:25, mlw wrote:
|
|
> A binary version of PostgreSQL for Windows should not use the cygwin dll. I
|
|
> know and understand there is some disagreement with this position, but in this
|
|
> I'm sure about this.
|
|
|
|
...
|
|
|
|
> I believe we can use the cygwin development environment, and direct gcc not to
|
|
> link with the cygwin dll. Last time I looked it was a command line option. This
|
|
> will produce a native windows application. No emulation, just a standard C
|
|
> runtime.
|
|
|
|
It seems that mingw (http://www.mingw.org/) does exactly this and
|
|
provides needed headers/libs. And they have also non-cycwin minimal
|
|
build environment (MSYS) that supplies make,sh and other stuff we might
|
|
use for running initdb and other shell scripts.
|
|
|
|
> Some of the hits will be file path manipulation, '/' vs '\', the notion of
|
|
> drive letters, and case insensitivity in file names.
|
|
>
|
|
> Unicode may be an issue, I haven't looked at that yet. Is that a must for the
|
|
> initial release?
|
|
|
|
Probably not.
|
|
|
|
>>
|
|
> A couple simple programs can be written using msvc to monitor, start and stop
|
|
> PostgreSQL. The programs will be simple using the application wizard, just make
|
|
> a small dialog box application.
|
|
|
|
dev-c++ has also wizards for easy making of trivial user interfaces
|
|
|
|
http://sourceforge.net/projects/dev-cpp/
|
|
|
|
--------------
|
|
Hannu
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
|
|
subscribe-nomail command to majordomo@postgresql.org so that your
|
|
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|
|
|
|
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22745@postgresql.org Fri May 10 17:31:05 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22745@postgresql.org>
|
|
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|
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|
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|
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|
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|
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|
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|
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|
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Fri, 10 May 2002 17:25:06 -0400
|
|
Message-ID: <3CDC3AAE.E39FF877@mohawksoft.com>
|
|
Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 17:25:02 -0400
|
|
From: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>
|
|
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|
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|
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To: Jan Wieck <janwieck@yahoo.com>, Jean-Michel POURE <jm.poure@freesurf.fr>,
|
|
Justin Clift <justin@postgresql.org>, "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>,
|
|
Iavor Raytchev <iavor.raytchev@verysmall.org>,
|
|
PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Subject: [HACKERS] Native Win32, How about this?
|
|
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|
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Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
|
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Status: RO
|
|
|
|
A binary version of PostgreSQL for Windows should not use the cygwin dll. I
|
|
know and understand there is some disagreement with this position, but in this
|
|
I'm sure about this.
|
|
|
|
The tools used to create the binary need not be Microsoft, many venders have
|
|
used Borland or Watcom, the run of the mill user/developer does not care. The
|
|
developers who do care won't mind the cygwin development environment as long as
|
|
it produces a native Windows binary that does not play tricks such as fork().
|
|
|
|
Windows developers don't care too much about source code. The build environment
|
|
will not be a problem.
|
|
|
|
The issue is that the system must perform well and must be stable. I do not
|
|
believe that cygwin can meet this requirement. Having done some research for
|
|
these discussions, I think we know it has startup performance issues and
|
|
unknown operational issues.
|
|
|
|
FYI: My PHP project msession, can produce both a Windows version and a Cygwin
|
|
version. It is threaded C++, but I have measured a performance improvements
|
|
using the native Windows version over the cygwin version. I have since
|
|
abandoned the cygwin version.
|
|
|
|
I believe we can use the cygwin development environment, and direct gcc not to
|
|
link with the cygwin dll. Last time I looked it was a command line option. This
|
|
will produce a native windows application. No emulation, just a standard C
|
|
runtime.
|
|
|
|
Some of the hits will be file path manipulation, '/' vs '\', the notion of
|
|
drive letters, and case insensitivity in file names.
|
|
|
|
Unicode may be an issue, I haven't looked at that yet. Is that a must for the
|
|
initial release?
|
|
|
|
There will be a need for some emulation/api specification of things like
|
|
semaphores, shared memory, file API (I would like to use Windows native
|
|
CreateFile routines, as these should be pretty fast.), and so on.
|
|
|
|
We will also have to breakup postgres and postmaster, and for the Windows
|
|
version use CreateProcess. There are a number of ways to attack this, globals
|
|
in a structure based in shared memory, globals in a .DLL exported to processes
|
|
and shared, and so on.
|
|
|
|
I think a huge time savings can be had by avoiding rewriting everything for the
|
|
Microsoft build environment. As far as I know, and please correct me if I'm
|
|
wrong, code produced by the cygwin gcc is freely distributable and need not be
|
|
GPL.
|
|
|
|
Once we have it working without fork() using the cygwin build environment, we
|
|
will have a native Windows application, we can then further evaluate whether or
|
|
not we want to expend the work to make a MSC version.
|
|
|
|
Once the backend and most of the tools are built without requiring the
|
|
cygwin.dll, installation is a breeze. Just dump it somewhere and run it.
|
|
|
|
A couple simple programs can be written using msvc to monitor, start and stop
|
|
PostgreSQL. The programs will be simple using the application wizard, just make
|
|
a small dialog box application.
|
|
|
|
Pgaccess will provide all the GUI stuff, and we may even be able to wrap the
|
|
monitor code into pgaccess.
|
|
|
|
The server install can be done with install shield.
|
|
|
|
There is code that will run any program as an NT service. We can use that for
|
|
server installations. We can use the MSVC wizard application to pop-up in the
|
|
tool bar.
|
|
|
|
Have I missed anything?
|
|
Is this a realistic and attainable plan?
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
|
|
|
|
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22762@postgresql.org Sat May 11 11:30:25 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22762@postgresql.org>
|
|
Received: from postgresql.org (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
|
|
by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g4BFUP414425
|
|
for <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>; Sat, 11 May 2002 11:30:25 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
Received: from localhost.localdomain (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
|
|
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|
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|
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|
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|
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|
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|
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|
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|
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|
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To: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
From: cbbrowne@cbbrowne.com
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Native Win32, How about this?
|
|
In-Reply-To: Message from mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>
|
|
of "Fri, 10 May 2002 17:25:02 EDT." <3CDC3AAE.E39FF877@mohawksoft.com>
|
|
References: <3CDC3AAE.E39FF877@mohawksoft.com>
|
|
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 11:26:18 -0400
|
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|
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Status: RO
|
|
|
|
--==_Exmh_-82808586P
|
|
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
|
|
|
|
> A binary version of PostgreSQL for Windows should not use the cygwin
|
|
> dll. I know and understand there is some disagreement with this
|
|
> position, but in this I'm sure about this.
|
|
|
|
That may ultimately be desirable.
|
|
|
|
In the short term, it is likely preferable to use cygwin.
|
|
|
|
It is only necessary to point at MySQL for an example. Cygwin is used there.
|
|
<http://www.mysql.com/downloads/mysql-3.23.html> It is being used widely,
|
|
"crap" or not.
|
|
|
|
Cygwin may not ultimately be the ideal thing to use; we don't yet live in
|
|
Pangloss' "Best of All Possible Worlds," and thus have to live with some
|
|
things not being ideal.
|
|
|
|
If having the installer install Cygwin as well as the DBMS makes it easy to
|
|
have something usable soon, and this allows 100,000 WinFolk to try out
|
|
PostgreSQL, then that's a Big Win. Out of 100K users, surely two or three may
|
|
be attracted into working on a more Panglossian solution.
|
|
|
|
It may be fair to say that none of those 100K folk would be using PostgreSQL
|
|
to support HA applications involving hundreds of GB of data. That's _fine_.
|
|
|
|
If there are new 100K folk using PostgreSQL/cygwin, _some_ of them will
|
|
outgrow its capabilities, and come looking for improvements.
|
|
|
|
And as they're Windows users, accustomed to having to pay hefty amounts to
|
|
Microsoft to get support no better than that provided by the Psychic Friends
|
|
Network (see <http://www.bmug.org/news/articles/MSvsPF.html>), they'll
|
|
doubtless be prepared to have to pay _something_ in order for
|
|
"PostgreSQL/Win3K-Enterprise Edition" to become available.
|
|
|
|
That seems a not too unreasonable path towards the "Best of All Possible
|
|
Worlds." There may be a bit of hyperbole in the above, but any time Voltaire
|
|
gets quoted, that's likely to happen :-).
|
|
--
|
|
(reverse (concatenate 'string "gro.gultn@" "enworbbc"))
|
|
http://www.cbbrowne.com/info/wp.html
|
|
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
|
|
|
|
--
|
|
(concatenate 'string "cbbrowne" "@ntlug.org")
|
|
http://www.cbbrowne.com/info/multiplexor.html
|
|
It's a little known fact that the Dark Ages were caused by the Y1K
|
|
problem.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
--==_Exmh_-82808586P
|
|
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature
|
|
|
|
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
|
|
Hash: SHA1
|
|
|
|
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
|
|
|
|
> A binary version of PostgreSQL for Windows should not use the cygwin
|
|
> dll. I know and understand there is some disagreement with this
|
|
> position, but in this I'm sure about this.
|
|
|
|
That may ultimately be desirable.
|
|
|
|
In the short term, it is likely preferable to use cygwin.
|
|
|
|
It is only necessary to point at MySQL for an example. Cygwin is used there.
|
|
<http://www.mysql.com/downloads/mysql-3.23.html> It is being used widely,
|
|
"crap" or not.
|
|
|
|
Cygwin may not ultimately be the ideal thing to use; we don't yet live in
|
|
Pangloss' "Best of All Possible Worlds," and thus have to live with some
|
|
things not being ideal.
|
|
|
|
If having the installer install Cygwin as well as the DBMS makes it easy to
|
|
have something usable soon, and this allows 100,000 WinFolk to try out
|
|
PostgreSQL, then that's a Big Win. Out of 100K users, surely two or three may
|
|
be attracted into working on a more Panglossian solution.
|
|
|
|
It may be fair to say that none of those 100K folk would be using PostgreSQL
|
|
to support HA applications involving hundreds of GB of data. That's _fine_.
|
|
|
|
If there are new 100K folk using PostgreSQL/cygwin, _some_ of them will
|
|
outgrow its capabilities, and come looking for improvements.
|
|
|
|
And as they're Windows users, accustomed to having to pay hefty amounts to
|
|
Microsoft to get support no better than that provided by the Psychic Friends
|
|
Network (see <http://www.bmug.org/news/articles/MSvsPF.html>), they'll
|
|
doubtless be prepared to have to pay _something_ in order for
|
|
"PostgreSQL/Win3K-Enterprise Edition" to become available.
|
|
|
|
That seems a not too unreasonable path towards the "Best of All Possible
|
|
Worlds." There may be a bit of hyperbole in the above, but any time Voltaire
|
|
gets quoted, that's likely to happen :-).
|
|
- --
|
|
(reverse (concatenate 'string "gro.gultn@" "enworbbc"))
|
|
http://www.cbbrowne.com/info/wp.html
|
|
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
|
|
|
|
- --
|
|
(concatenate 'string "cbbrowne" "@ntlug.org")
|
|
http://www.cbbrowne.com/info/multiplexor.html
|
|
It's a little known fact that the Dark Ages were caused by the Y1K
|
|
problem.
|
|
|
|
|
|
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
|
|
Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux)
|
|
Comment: Exmh version 2.3.1 01/18/2001 (debian 2.3.1-1)
|
|
|
|
iD8DBQE83TgaN7hZUGqmpxMRAqSeAJ9jkunhAG72NLz7rcPMVcWXbHWY+gCgxu+D
|
|
wumPJyqj0/9k5bc+v7NVvFI=
|
|
=pKbi
|
|
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
|
|
|
|
--==_Exmh_-82808586P--
|
|
|
|
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22812@postgresql.org Mon May 13 11:30:34 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22812@postgresql.org>
|
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Received: from postgresql.org (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
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id 7C929476103; Mon, 13 May 2002 09:51:48 -0400 (EDT)
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Received: from althea.tishler.net
|
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(bgp572446bgs.eatntn01.nj.comcast.net [68.39.6.197])
|
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by mtaout03.icomcast.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 HotFix 0.6 (built Apr
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13 May 2002 09:59:04 -0400
|
|
Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 09:59:04 -0400
|
|
From: Jason Tishler <jason@tishler.net>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Native Win32, How about this?
|
|
In-Reply-To: <3CDC3AAE.E39FF877@mohawksoft.com>
|
|
To: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>
|
|
cc: Jan Wieck <janwieck@yahoo.com>, Jean-Michel POURE <jm.poure@freesurf.fr>,
|
|
Justin Clift <justin@postgresql.org>, "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>,
|
|
Iavor Raytchev <iavor.raytchev@verysmall.org>,
|
|
PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Mail-Followup-To: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>,
|
|
Jan Wieck <janwieck@yahoo.com>,
|
|
Jean-Michel POURE <jm.poure@freesurf.fr>,
|
|
Justin Clift <justin@postgresql.org>,
|
|
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>,
|
|
Iavor Raytchev <iavor.raytchev@verysmall.org>,
|
|
PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Message-ID: <20020513135857.GB2224@tishler.net>
|
|
MIME-Version: 1.0
|
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|
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
|
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Content-Disposition: inline
|
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User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.24i
|
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References: <3CDC3AAE.E39FF877@mohawksoft.com>
|
|
Precedence: bulk
|
|
Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
|
|
Status: RO
|
|
|
|
mlw,
|
|
|
|
On Fri, May 10, 2002 at 05:25:02PM -0400, mlw wrote:
|
|
> A binary version of PostgreSQL for Windows should not use the cygwin
|
|
> dll. I know and understand there is some disagreement with this position,
|
|
> but in this I'm sure about this.
|
|
|
|
Sorry, but I'm not going to touch the above -- even with a ten foot pole.
|
|
Or, at least try not to... :,)
|
|
|
|
> I believe we can use the cygwin development environment, and direct gcc
|
|
> not to link with the cygwin dll. Last time I looked it was a command line
|
|
> option. This will produce a native windows application. No emulation,
|
|
> just a standard C runtime.
|
|
|
|
Yes, the above mentioned option is "-mno-cygwin".
|
|
|
|
> Some of the hits will be file path manipulation, '/' vs '\', the notion of
|
|
> drive letters, and case insensitivity in file names.
|
|
|
|
Case insensitivity is typically "enabled" regardless. Unless you are
|
|
referring to CYGWIN=check_case:strict, but almost no one uses this setting.
|
|
|
|
Just to be explicit, another hit will be the loss of Posix.
|
|
|
|
> [snip]
|
|
>
|
|
> I think a huge time savings can be had by avoiding rewriting everything
|
|
> for the Microsoft build environment.
|
|
|
|
Yes, you should use Cygwin and gcc -mno-cygwin or MSYS and Mingw.
|
|
|
|
> As far as I know, and please correct me if I'm wrong, code produced by
|
|
> the cygwin gcc is freely distributable and need not be GPL.
|
|
|
|
The above is true only with gcc -mno-cygwin or Mingw code. Any code
|
|
produced by the normal Cygwin gcc (and hence, linked against cygwin1.dll)
|
|
is effectively GPL'd or at least required to be open source.
|
|
|
|
> [snip]
|
|
|
|
Jason
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
|
|
|
|
http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html
|
|
|
|
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22887@postgresql.org Thu May 16 07:48:56 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22887@postgresql.org>
|
|
Received: from postgresql.org (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
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by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g4GBmtB15522
|
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for <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>; Thu, 16 May 2002 07:48:55 -0400 (EDT)
|
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Received: from localhost.localdomain (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
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|
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|
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|
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for <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>; Thu, 16 May 2002 13:48:12 +0200
|
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by localhost.localdomain (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA14722
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for <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>; Thu, 16 May 2002 13:48:10 +0200
|
|
Message-ID: <200205161148.NAA14722@localhost.localdomain>
|
|
Content-Type: text/plain;
|
|
charset="iso-8859-1"
|
|
From: Joerg Hessdoerfer <Joerg.Hessdoerfer@sea-gmbh.com>
|
|
Organization: S.E.A Datentechnik GmbH
|
|
To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
|
|
Subject: [HACKERS] WIN32 native ... lets start?!?
|
|
Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 13:47:45 +0200
|
|
X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2]
|
|
MIME-Version: 1.0
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|
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Precedence: bulk
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Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
|
|
Status: RO
|
|
|
|
Hi all,
|
|
|
|
I followed the various threads regarding this for some time now. My current
|
|
situation is:
|
|
|
|
I'm working at a company which does industrial automation, and does it's own
|
|
custom products. We try to be cross-platform, but it's a windoze world, as
|
|
far as most measurement devices or PLCs are concerned. We also employ
|
|
databases for various tasks (including simple ones as holding configuration
|
|
data, but also hammering production data into it at a rate of several hundred
|
|
records/sec.)
|
|
Well, we would *love* to use PostgreSQL in most our projects and products,
|
|
(and we do already use it in some), because it has proven to be very reliable
|
|
and quite fast.
|
|
|
|
So, I'm faced with using PostgreSQL on windows also (you can't always put a
|
|
Linux box besides). We do this using cygwin, but it's a bit painful ;-)
|
|
(although it works!).
|
|
|
|
Thinking about the hreads I read, it seems there are 2 obstacles to native PG
|
|
on W:
|
|
|
|
1.) no fork,
|
|
2.) no SYSV IPC
|
|
|
|
Ok, 1.) is an issue, but there's a fork() in MinGW, so it's 'just' going to
|
|
be a bit slow on new connections to the DB, right?? But this could be sorted
|
|
out once we *have* a native WIN32 build.
|
|
|
|
The second one's a bit harder, but... I'm currently trying to find time to do
|
|
a minimal implementation of SYSV IPC on WIN32 calls, just enough to get PG up
|
|
(doesn't need msg*() for example, right?).
|
|
As far as I understand it, we would not need to have IPC items around *after*
|
|
all backends and postmaster have gone away, or? Then there's no need for a
|
|
'daemon' process like in cygwin.
|
|
|
|
So, my route would be to get it to run *somehow* without paying attention to
|
|
speed and not to change much of the existing code, THEN see how we could get
|
|
rid of fork() on windows.
|
|
|
|
What do you guys think? Anyone up to join efforts? (I'll start the IPC thingy
|
|
anyway, as an exercise, and see where I'll end).
|
|
|
|
Greetings,
|
|
Joerg
|
|
|
|
P.s.: thanks for a great database system!!
|
|
--
|
|
Leading SW developer - S.E.A GmbH
|
|
Mail: joerg.hessdoerfer@sea-gmbh.com
|
|
WWW: http://www.sea-gmbh.com
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command
|
|
(send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to majordomo@postgresql.org)
|
|
|
|
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22888@postgresql.org Thu May 16 09:39:14 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22888@postgresql.org>
|
|
Received: from postgresql.org (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
|
|
by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g4GDdDB16601
|
|
for <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>; Thu, 16 May 2002 09:39:13 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
Received: from localhost.localdomain (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
|
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|
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|
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|
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|
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|
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for <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>; Thu, 16 May 2002 09:38:25 -0400 (EDT)
|
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|
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|
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|
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|
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Received: from earth.hub.org (earth.hub.org [64.49.215.11])
|
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|
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id 92DBB1035CA; Thu, 16 May 2002 10:38:25 -0300 (ADT)
|
|
Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 10:38:25 -0300 (ADT)
|
|
From: "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>
|
|
To: Joerg Hessdoerfer <Joerg.Hessdoerfer@sea-gmbh.com>
|
|
cc: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] WIN32 native ... lets start?!?
|
|
In-Reply-To: <200205161148.NAA14722@localhost.localdomain>
|
|
Message-ID: <20020516103501.Q6260-100000@mail1.hub.org>
|
|
MIME-Version: 1.0
|
|
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
|
|
Precedence: bulk
|
|
Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
|
|
Status: ROr
|
|
|
|
|
|
Actually, take a look at the thread starting at:
|
|
|
|
http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-hackers/2002-05/msg00665.php
|
|
|
|
Right now, IMHO, the big show stopper is passing global variables to the
|
|
child processes in Windows ... the above thread talks about a method of
|
|
pulling together the global variables *cleanly* that Tom seems to feel
|
|
wouldn't add much in the way of long term maintenance headaches ... *and*,
|
|
as I understand it, would provide us with a means to use threading in
|
|
future developments if deemed appropriate ...
|
|
|
|
>From what I read by those 'in the know' about Windows programming, if we
|
|
could centralize the global variables somewhat, using CreateProcess in
|
|
Windows shouldn't be a big deal, eliminiating the whole fork() headache
|
|
...
|
|
|
|
On Thu, 16 May 2002, Joerg Hessdoerfer wrote:
|
|
|
|
> Hi all,
|
|
>
|
|
> I followed the various threads regarding this for some time now. My current
|
|
> situation is:
|
|
>
|
|
> I'm working at a company which does industrial automation, and does it's own
|
|
> custom products. We try to be cross-platform, but it's a windoze world, as
|
|
> far as most measurement devices or PLCs are concerned. We also employ
|
|
> databases for various tasks (including simple ones as holding configuration
|
|
> data, but also hammering production data into it at a rate of several hundred
|
|
> records/sec.)
|
|
> Well, we would *love* to use PostgreSQL in most our projects and products,
|
|
> (and we do already use it in some), because it has proven to be very reliable
|
|
> and quite fast.
|
|
>
|
|
> So, I'm faced with using PostgreSQL on windows also (you can't always put a
|
|
> Linux box besides). We do this using cygwin, but it's a bit painful ;-)
|
|
> (although it works!).
|
|
>
|
|
> Thinking about the hreads I read, it seems there are 2 obstacles to native PG
|
|
> on W:
|
|
>
|
|
> 1.) no fork,
|
|
> 2.) no SYSV IPC
|
|
>
|
|
> Ok, 1.) is an issue, but there's a fork() in MinGW, so it's 'just' going to
|
|
> be a bit slow on new connections to the DB, right?? But this could be sorted
|
|
> out once we *have* a native WIN32 build.
|
|
>
|
|
> The second one's a bit harder, but... I'm currently trying to find time to do
|
|
> a minimal implementation of SYSV IPC on WIN32 calls, just enough to get PG up
|
|
> (doesn't need msg*() for example, right?).
|
|
> As far as I understand it, we would not need to have IPC items around *after*
|
|
> all backends and postmaster have gone away, or? Then there's no need for a
|
|
> 'daemon' process like in cygwin.
|
|
>
|
|
> So, my route would be to get it to run *somehow* without paying attention to
|
|
> speed and not to change much of the existing code, THEN see how we could get
|
|
> rid of fork() on windows.
|
|
>
|
|
> What do you guys think? Anyone up to join efforts? (I'll start the IPC thingy
|
|
> anyway, as an exercise, and see where I'll end).
|
|
>
|
|
> Greetings,
|
|
> Joerg
|
|
>
|
|
> P.s.: thanks for a great database system!!
|
|
> --
|
|
> Leading SW developer - S.E.A GmbH
|
|
> Mail: joerg.hessdoerfer@sea-gmbh.com
|
|
> WWW: http://www.sea-gmbh.com
|
|
>
|
|
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
> TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command
|
|
> (send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to majordomo@postgresql.org)
|
|
>
|
|
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
|
|
|
|
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23371@postgresql.org Mon Jun 3 07:19:20 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M23371@postgresql.org>
|
|
Received: from postgresql.org (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
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|
by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g53BJJB21871
|
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for <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>; Mon, 3 Jun 2002 07:19:19 -0400 (EDT)
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Received: from localhost.localdomain (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
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id 304D947586C; Mon, 3 Jun 2002 07:19:09 -0400 (EDT)
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Sun, 2 Jun 2002 21:15:08 -0400
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Message-ID: <010201c20a9b$8779a4a0$b401a8c0@vrlas>
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Reply-To: "coventry" <coventry@one.net>
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From: "coventry" <coventry@one.net>
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To: "pg hackers" <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] HEADS UP: Win32/OS2/BeOS native ports
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Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 21:11:02 -0400
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MIME-Version: 1.0
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Status: RO
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I think its already been determined that the cygwin option is too low
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performing.
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However, the apache stuff could be quite useful - but if that effort
|
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were to be undertaken, it would make more sense to move all versions of the
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code the
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the apache runtime, for all platforms. Are there any other runtime
|
|
libraries out there
|
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that are cross platform, open/free and high performance? I know the mozilla
|
|
XPCOM
|
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libraries work quite nicely, but are geared more towards multithreaded
|
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apps - and the
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COM-alike infrastructure is something we wouldn't need.
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~Jon
|
|
|
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----- Original Message -----
|
|
From: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
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To: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>
|
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Cc: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>; Marc G. Fournier <scrappy@hub.org>;
|
|
<pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 8:49 PM
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] HEADS UP: Win32/OS2/BeOS native ports
|
|
|
|
|
|
> mlw wrote:
|
|
> > Like I told Marc, I don't care. You spec out what you want and I'll
|
|
write it
|
|
> > for Windows.
|
|
> >
|
|
> > That being said, a SysV IPC interface for native Windows would be kind
|
|
of cool
|
|
> > to have.
|
|
>
|
|
> I am wondering why we don't just use the Cygwin shm/sem code in our
|
|
> project, or maybe the Apache stuff; why bother reinventing the wheel.
|
|
>
|
|
> --
|
|
> Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
|
|
> pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000
|
|
> + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
|
|
> + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
|
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>
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> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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> TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
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From jason@tishler.net Mon Jun 3 09:19:17 2002
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Return-path: <jason@tishler.net>
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03 Jun 2002 09:18:41 -0400
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Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 09:18:40 -0400
|
|
From: Jason Tishler <jason@tishler.net>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] HEADS UP: Win32/OS2/BeOS native ports
|
|
In-Reply-To: <200206030049.g530nL822000@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
To: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
cc: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>,
|
|
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
|
|
Mail-Followup-To: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,
|
|
mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>,
|
|
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
|
|
Message-ID: <20020603131840.GA1020@tishler.net>
|
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User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.24i
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References: <3CD318C1.FF21DFDB@mohawksoft.com>
|
|
<200206030049.g530nL822000@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
Status: RO
|
|
|
|
Bruce,
|
|
|
|
On Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 08:49:21PM -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote:
|
|
> mlw wrote:
|
|
> > Like I told Marc, I don't care. You spec out what you want and I'll write it
|
|
> > for Windows.
|
|
> >
|
|
> > That being said, a SysV IPC interface for native Windows would be kind of
|
|
> > cool to have.
|
|
>
|
|
> I am wondering why we don't just use the Cygwin shm/sem code in our
|
|
> project, or maybe the Apache stuff; why bother reinventing the wheel.
|
|
|
|
Are you referring to cygipc above? If so, they even one of the original
|
|
cygipc authors would discourage this:
|
|
|
|
http://sources.redhat.com/ml/cygwin-apps/2001-09/msg00017.html
|
|
|
|
Specifically, Ludovic Lange states the following:
|
|
|
|
> I really think the solution would be to start again from scratch
|
|
> another implementation, as was suggested. The way we did it was
|
|
> quick and dirty, the goals weren't to have production systems
|
|
> running on it but only to run prototypes. So the internal design
|
|
> (if there is any) may not be adequate for the cygwin project.
|
|
|
|
However, Rob Collins has contributed a MinGW daemon to Cygwin to support
|
|
switching users, System V IPC, etc. So, this code base may be a more
|
|
suitable starting point to satisfy PostgreSQL's native Win32 System V
|
|
IPC needs.
|
|
|
|
Jason
|
|
|
|
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23378@postgresql.org Mon Jun 3 09:29:13 2002
|
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Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M23378@postgresql.org>
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03 Jun 2002 09:28:48 -0400
|
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Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 09:28:48 -0400
|
|
From: Jason Tishler <jason@tishler.net>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] HEADS UP: Win32/OS2/BeOS native ports
|
|
In-Reply-To: <3CFAC785.4AAF9F79@mohawksoft.com>
|
|
To: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>
|
|
cc: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>,
|
|
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
|
|
Mail-Followup-To: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>,
|
|
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>,
|
|
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
|
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<3CFAC785.4AAF9F79@mohawksoft.com>
|
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Precedence: bulk
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Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
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Status: RO
|
|
|
|
On Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 09:33:57PM -0400, mlw wrote:
|
|
> Bruce Momjian wrote:
|
|
> > mlw wrote:
|
|
> > > Like I told Marc, I don't care. You spec out what you want and I'll write
|
|
> > > it for Windows.
|
|
> > >
|
|
> > > That being said, a SysV IPC interface for native Windows would be kind of
|
|
> > > cool to have.
|
|
> >
|
|
> > I am wondering why we don't just use the Cygwin shm/sem code in our
|
|
> > project, or maybe the Apache stuff; why bother reinventing the wheel.
|
|
>
|
|
> but! in the course of testing some code, I managed to gain some experience
|
|
> with cygwin. I have seen fork() problems with a large number of processes.
|
|
|
|
Since Cygwin's fork() is implemented with WaitForMultipleObjects(),
|
|
it has a limitation of only 63 children per parent. Also, there can
|
|
be DLL base address conflicts (causing Cygwin fork() to fail) that are
|
|
avoidable by rebasing the appropriate DLLs. AFAICT, Cygwin PostgreSQL is
|
|
currently *not* affected by this issue where as other Cygwin applications
|
|
such as Python and Apache are.
|
|
|
|
Jason
|
|
|
|
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23379@postgresql.org Mon Jun 3 10:08:15 2002
|
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Mon, 3 Jun 2002 09:44:39 -0400
|
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From: Jan Wieck <janwieck@yahoo.com>
|
|
Message-ID: <200206031344.g53Didi02442@saturn.janwieck.net>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] HEADS UP: Win32/OS2/BeOS native ports
|
|
In-Reply-To: <20020603132848.GB1020@tishler.net> from Jason Tishler at "Jun 3,
|
|
2002 09:28:48 am"
|
|
To: Jason Tishler <jason@tishler.net>
|
|
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 09:44:38 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
cc: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>, Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,
|
|
Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>, "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>,
|
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pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
|
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X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL68 (25)]
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Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
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Status: RO
|
|
|
|
Jason Tishler wrote:
|
|
> On Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 09:33:57PM -0400, mlw wrote:
|
|
> > Bruce Momjian wrote:
|
|
> > > mlw wrote:
|
|
> > > > Like I told Marc, I don't care. You spec out what you want and I'll write
|
|
> > > > it for Windows.
|
|
> > > >
|
|
> > > > That being said, a SysV IPC interface for native Windows would be kind of
|
|
> > > > cool to have.
|
|
> > >
|
|
> > > I am wondering why we don't just use the Cygwin shm/sem code in our
|
|
> > > project, or maybe the Apache stuff; why bother reinventing the wheel.
|
|
> >
|
|
> > but! in the course of testing some code, I managed to gain some experience
|
|
> > with cygwin. I have seen fork() problems with a large number of processes.
|
|
>
|
|
> Since Cygwin's fork() is implemented with WaitForMultipleObjects(),
|
|
> it has a limitation of only 63 children per parent. Also, there can
|
|
> be DLL base address conflicts (causing Cygwin fork() to fail) that are
|
|
> avoidable by rebasing the appropriate DLLs. AFAICT, Cygwin PostgreSQL is
|
|
> currently *not* affected by this issue where as other Cygwin applications
|
|
> such as Python and Apache are.
|
|
|
|
Whatever technical problems there are, we can debate on and
|
|
on if it's worth working around them in PostgreSQL or fixing
|
|
them in CygWIN or whatever.
|
|
|
|
The main problem will remain. That using PostgreSQL under
|
|
CygWIN requires some UNIX know how. So a pure Windows
|
|
user/shop needs UNIX knowledge to run our "Windows port" of
|
|
PostgreSQL? Interesting definition of "port".
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jan
|
|
|
|
--
|
|
|
|
#======================================================================#
|
|
# It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. #
|
|
# Let's break this rule - forgive me. #
|
|
#================================================== JanWieck@Yahoo.com #
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From markw@mohawksoft.com Mon Jun 3 17:40:50 2002
|
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Return-path: <markw@mohawksoft.com>
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Received: from snoopy.mohawksoft.com (h0050bf7a618d.ne.client2.attbi.com [24.147.138.78])
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Sender: markw@snoopy.mohawksoft.com
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Message-ID: <3CFBE1C9.A0B83716@mohawksoft.com>
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Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 17:38:17 -0400
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From: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>
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To: Jason Tishler <jason@tishler.net>
|
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cc: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>,
|
|
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] HEADS UP: Win32/OS2/BeOS native ports
|
|
References: <200206030049.g530nL822000@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
<3CFAC785.4AAF9F79@mohawksoft.com> <20020603132848.GB1020@tishler.net>
|
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<3CFB70F3.63AE630B@mohawksoft.com> <20020603142957.GA952@tishler.net>
|
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Status: RO
|
|
|
|
Jason Tishler wrote:
|
|
>
|
|
> On Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 09:36:51AM -0400, mlw wrote:
|
|
> > Jason Tishler wrote:
|
|
> > >
|
|
> > > On Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 09:33:57PM -0400, mlw wrote:
|
|
> > > > Bruce Momjian wrote:
|
|
> > > > > mlw wrote:
|
|
> > > > > > Like I told Marc, I don't care. You spec out what you want and I'll
|
|
> > > > > > write it for Windows.
|
|
> > > > > >
|
|
> > > > > > That being said, a SysV IPC interface for native Windows would be
|
|
> > > > > > kind of cool to have.
|
|
> > > > >
|
|
> > > > > I am wondering why we don't just use the Cygwin shm/sem code in our
|
|
> > > > > project, or maybe the Apache stuff; why bother reinventing the wheel.
|
|
> > > >
|
|
> > > > but! in the course of testing some code, I managed to gain some experience
|
|
> > > > with cygwin. I have seen fork() problems with a large number of processes.
|
|
> > >
|
|
> > > Since Cygwin's fork() is implemented with WaitForMultipleObjects(),
|
|
> > > it has a limitation of only 63 children per parent. Also, there can
|
|
> > > be DLL base address conflicts (causing Cygwin fork() to fail) that are
|
|
> > > avoidable by rebasing the appropriate DLLs. AFAICT, Cygwin PostgreSQL is
|
|
> > > currently *not* affected by this issue where as other Cygwin applications
|
|
> > > such as Python and Apache are.
|
|
> >
|
|
> > Why would not PostgreSQL be affected by this?
|
|
>
|
|
> Sorry, if I was unclear -- I should have used two paragraphs above and
|
|
> maybe a few more words... :,)
|
|
>
|
|
> Cygwin PostgreSQL *is* affected by the Cygwin 63 children per parent
|
|
> fork limitation.
|
|
>
|
|
> PostgreSQL *can* be affected by the Cygwin DLL base address conflict
|
|
> fork issue, but in my experience (both personal and by monitoring the
|
|
> Cygwin and pgsql-cygwin lists), no one has been affected yet. The DLL
|
|
> base address conflict is a "probability" thing. The more DLLs loaded
|
|
> the greater the chance of a conflict (and fork() failing). Since, Cygwin
|
|
> PostgreSQL loads only a few DLLs, this has not become an issue (yet).
|
|
|
|
I'm not sure the DLL load address is a big issue for PostgreSQL, AFAIK no
|
|
option DLLs will be loaded by Postmaster. So, with fork() it will be a simple
|
|
process. A PostgreSQL child will die upon completion, and never execute fork().
|
|
|
|
My concern would be the limit on the number of child processes allowed. 63 is
|
|
far below what would be considered a usable number in production, and as long
|
|
as that is an issue, I don't think anyone would take PostgreSQL seriously.
|
|
|
|
A Windows version of PostgreSQL must run within the confines of the Windows OS.
|
|
The reason, IMHO, that no one has found any serious bugs in the cygwin version,
|
|
is because no one is seriously using it. Anyone who *would* seriously use it,
|
|
knows better.
|
|
|
|
From robert.schrem@WiredMinds.de Mon Jun 3 10:08:28 2002
|
|
Return-path: <robert.schrem@WiredMinds.de>
|
|
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|
|
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|
|
for <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>; Mon, 3 Jun 2002 10:08:27 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
Received: from pc-robert (roberts@pc-robert.wiredminds.de [192.168.111.59])
|
|
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|
|
Mon, 3 Jun 2002 16:08:47 +0200
|
|
Content-Type: text/plain;
|
|
charset="iso-8859-1"
|
|
From: Robert Schrem <robert.schrem@WiredMinds.de>
|
|
Reply-To: robert.schrem@WiredMinds.de
|
|
Organization: WiredMinds GmbH
|
|
To: Jason Tishler <jason@tishler.net>, Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
Subject: Re: HEADS UP: Win32/OS2/BeOS native ports - the 'BEST OPEN SOURCE database backend'
|
|
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 16:08:14 +0200
|
|
X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.4]
|
|
cc: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>,
|
|
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
|
|
References: <3CD318C1.FF21DFDB@mohawksoft.com> <200206030049.g530nL822000@candle.pha.pa.us> <20020603131840.GA1020@tishler.net>
|
|
In-Reply-To: <20020603131840.GA1020@tishler.net>
|
|
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|
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|
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|
|
Status: RO
|
|
|
|
Hi,
|
|
|
|
You may want to have a look at: http://www.garret.ru/~knizhnik/
|
|
You find there code for a 'Fast synchronized access to shared
|
|
memory for Windows and for i86 Unix-es".
|
|
|
|
kind regards,
|
|
|
|
Robert
|
|
|
|
> Bruce,
|
|
>
|
|
> On Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 08:49:21PM -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote:
|
|
> > mlw wrote:
|
|
> > > Like I told Marc, I don't care. You spec out what you want and I'll
|
|
> > > write it for Windows.
|
|
> > >
|
|
> > > That being said, a SysV IPC interface for native Windows would be kind
|
|
> > > of cool to have.
|
|
> >
|
|
> > I am wondering why we don't just use the Cygwin shm/sem code in our
|
|
> > project, or maybe the Apache stuff; why bother reinventing the wheel.
|
|
>
|
|
> Are you referring to cygipc above? If so, they even one of the original
|
|
> cygipc authors would discourage this:
|
|
>
|
|
> http://sources.redhat.com/ml/cygwin-apps/2001-09/msg00017.html
|
|
>
|
|
> Specifically, Ludovic Lange states the following:
|
|
> > I really think the solution would be to start again from scratch
|
|
> > another implementation, as was suggested. The way we did it was
|
|
> > quick and dirty, the goals weren't to have production systems
|
|
> > running on it but only to run prototypes. So the internal design
|
|
> > (if there is any) may not be adequate for the cygwin project.
|
|
>
|
|
> However, Rob Collins has contributed a MinGW daemon to Cygwin to support
|
|
> switching users, System V IPC, etc. So, this code base may be a more
|
|
> suitable starting point to satisfy PostgreSQL's native Win32 System V
|
|
> IPC needs.
|
|
>
|
|
> Jason
|
|
>
|
|
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
> TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command
|
|
> (send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to majordomo@postgresql.org)
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|
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|
|
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23404@postgresql.org Wed Jun 5 00:34:21 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M23404@postgresql.org>
|
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Received: from postgresql.org (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
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by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g554YKs05329
|
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Received: from localhost.localdomain (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
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|
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|
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for pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org; Wed, 5 Jun 2002 00:33:44 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
From: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
Message-ID: <200206050433.g554XiN05245@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
Subject: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
|
|
In-Reply-To: <20020516103501.Q6260-100000@mail1.hub.org>
|
|
To: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 00:33:44 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL97 (25)]
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Precedence: bulk
|
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Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
|
|
Status: ROr
|
|
|
|
OK, I think I am now caught up on the Win32/cygwin discussion, and would
|
|
like to make some remarks.
|
|
|
|
First, are we doing enough to support the Win32 platform? I think the
|
|
answer is clearly "no". There are 3-5 groups/companies working on Win32
|
|
ports of PostgreSQL. We always said there would not be PostgreSQL forks
|
|
if we were doing our job to meet user needs. Well, obviously, a number
|
|
of groups see a need for a better Win32 port and we aren't meeting that
|
|
need, so they are. I believe this is one of the few cases where groups
|
|
are going out on their own because we are falling behind.
|
|
|
|
So, there is no question in my mind we need to do more to encourage
|
|
Win32 ports. Now, on to the details.
|
|
|
|
INSTALLER
|
|
---------
|
|
|
|
We clearly need an installer that is zero-hassle for users. We need to
|
|
decide on a direction for this.
|
|
|
|
GUI
|
|
---
|
|
|
|
We need a slick GUI. pgadmin2 seems to be everyone's favorite, with
|
|
pgaccess on Win32 also an option. What else do we need here?
|
|
|
|
BINARY
|
|
------
|
|
|
|
This is the big daddy. It is broken down into several sections:
|
|
|
|
FORK()
|
|
|
|
How do we handle fork()? Do we use the cygwin method that copies the
|
|
whole data segment, or put the global data in shared memory and copy
|
|
that small part manually after we create a new process?
|
|
|
|
THREADING
|
|
|
|
Related to fork(), do we implement an optionally threaded postmaster,
|
|
which eliminates CreateProcess() entirely? I don't think we will have
|
|
superior performance on Win32 without it. (This would greatly help
|
|
Solaris as well.)
|
|
|
|
IPC
|
|
|
|
We can use Cygwin, MinGW, Apache, or our own code for this. Are there
|
|
other options?
|
|
|
|
ENVIRONMENT
|
|
|
|
Lots of our code requires a unix shell and utilities. Will we continue
|
|
using cygwin for this?
|
|
|
|
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
|
|
|
As a roadmap, it would be good to get consensus on as many of these
|
|
items as possible so people can start working in these areas. We can
|
|
keep a web page of decisions we have made to help rally developers to
|
|
the project.
|
|
|
|
--
|
|
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
|
|
pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000
|
|
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
|
|
+ Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
|
|
|
|
http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html
|
|
|
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23405@postgresql.org Wed Jun 5 01:02:39 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M23405@postgresql.org>
|
|
Received: from postgresql.org (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
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by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g5552cs07802
|
|
for <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>; Wed, 5 Jun 2002 01:02:38 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
Received: from localhost.localdomain (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
|
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by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP
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|
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|
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by postgresql.org (Postfix) with SMTP
|
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Received: from localhost.localdomain (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
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|
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for <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>; Wed, 5 Jun 2002 01:01:59 -0400 (EDT)
|
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Received: from voyager.corporate.connx.com (unknown [209.20.248.131])
|
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by postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4F2B475986
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|
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MIME-Version: 1.0
|
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Content-Type: text/plain;
|
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charset="iso-8859-1"
|
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
|
|
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.4712.0
|
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content-class: urn:content-classes:message
|
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Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 22:02:14 -0700
|
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Message-ID: <D90A5A6C612A39408103E6ECDD77B82906F465@voyager.corporate.connx.com>
|
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Thread-Topic: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
|
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Thread-Index: AcIMSk/7WQpVSQqTSsiRN1SUew56HgAAWkLg
|
|
From: "Dann Corbit" <DCorbit@connx.com>
|
|
To: "Bruce Momjian" <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,
|
|
"PostgreSQL-development" <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Precedence: bulk
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X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by candle.pha.pa.us id g5552cs07802
|
|
Status: RO
|
|
|
|
> -----Original Message-----
|
|
> From: Bruce Momjian [mailto:pgman@candle.pha.pa.us]
|
|
> Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 9:34 PM
|
|
> To: PostgreSQL-development
|
|
> Subject: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
|
|
>
|
|
>
|
|
> OK, I think I am now caught up on the Win32/cygwin
|
|
> discussion, and would
|
|
> like to make some remarks.
|
|
>
|
|
> First, are we doing enough to support the Win32 platform? I think the
|
|
> answer is clearly "no". There are 3-5 groups/companies
|
|
> working on Win32
|
|
> ports of PostgreSQL. We always said there would not be
|
|
> PostgreSQL forks
|
|
> if we were doing our job to meet user needs. Well,
|
|
> obviously, a number
|
|
> of groups see a need for a better Win32 port and we aren't
|
|
> meeting that
|
|
> need, so they are. I believe this is one of the few cases
|
|
> where groups
|
|
> are going out on their own because we are falling behind.
|
|
>
|
|
> So, there is no question in my mind we need to do more to encourage
|
|
> Win32 ports. Now, on to the details.
|
|
>
|
|
> INSTALLER
|
|
> ---------
|
|
>
|
|
> We clearly need an installer that is zero-hassle for users.
|
|
> We need to
|
|
> decide on a direction for this.
|
|
>
|
|
> GUI
|
|
> ---
|
|
>
|
|
> We need a slick GUI. pgadmin2 seems to be everyone's favorite, with
|
|
> pgaccess on Win32 also an option. What else do we need here?
|
|
|
|
Nothing else. It is better than any commercial tools in current use.
|
|
An excellent piece of work.
|
|
|
|
> BINARY
|
|
> ------
|
|
>
|
|
> This is the big daddy. It is broken down into several sections:
|
|
>
|
|
> FORK()
|
|
>
|
|
> How do we handle fork()? Do we use the cygwin method that copies the
|
|
> whole data segment, or put the global data in shared memory and copy
|
|
> that small part manually after we create a new process?
|
|
|
|
Do not try to do a fork() on Win32. The one at PW32 is better, but
|
|
still awful. Win32 just does not have fascilities for fork().
|
|
|
|
If you use Cygwin, it will kill the project for commercial use (at least
|
|
for many institutions). That's fine, but it will become an academic
|
|
exercise instead of a viable commercial tool. If they are comfortable
|
|
in that [Cygwin] environment, it makes no sense to use Cygwin instead of
|
|
Redhat. The Redhat version will fork() 100 times faster. After all, if
|
|
they are going to use unix tools in a unix interface with Unix scripts
|
|
you might as well use UNIX. And Cygwin requires a license for
|
|
commercial use.
|
|
http://cygwin.com/licensing.html
|
|
|
|
> THREADING
|
|
>
|
|
> Related to fork(), do we implement an optionally threaded postmaster,
|
|
> which eliminates CreateProcess() entirely? I don't think we will have
|
|
> superior performance on Win32 without it. (This would greatly help
|
|
> Solaris as well.)
|
|
|
|
CreateProcess() works well for Win32. That is the approach that we used
|
|
and also the approach used by the Japanese team.
|
|
It is very simple. Simply do a create process call and then perform the
|
|
same operations that were done up to that point. It isn't difficult.
|
|
Threading is another possibility. I think create process is better,
|
|
because you can clone the rights of the one who attaches for the spawned
|
|
server (if you want to do that).
|
|
|
|
>
|
|
> IPC
|
|
>
|
|
> We can use Cygwin, MinGW, Apache, or our own code for this. Are there
|
|
> other options?
|
|
|
|
We wrote our own from scratch. Cygwin will kill it. If there is a
|
|
MinGW version it might be OK, but if MinGW is GPL, that will kill it.
|
|
Have a look at ACE:
|
|
http://www.cs.wustl.edu/~schmidt/ACE.html
|
|
Their license is on the same level as a BSD license. Now, they use C++,
|
|
but you can always write:
|
|
extern "C" {
|
|
}
|
|
wrappers for stuff and keep PostgreSQL itself in pure, vanilla C. GCC
|
|
does come with a C++ compiler, so it isn't going to cut anyone off.
|
|
|
|
> ENVIRONMENT
|
|
>
|
|
> Lots of our code requires a Unix shell and utilities. Will
|
|
> we continue
|
|
> using cygwin for this?
|
|
|
|
We wrote our own utilities from scratch (e.g. initdb). The Japanese
|
|
group that did the port did the same thing.
|
|
|
|
> --------------------------------------------------------------
|
|
> -------------
|
|
>
|
|
> As a roadmap, it would be good to get consensus on as many of these
|
|
> items as possible so people can start working in these areas. We can
|
|
> keep a web page of decisions we have made to help rally developers to
|
|
> the project.
|
|
|
|
If you want a roadmap, the Japanese group laid it out for you. They
|
|
did the exact same steps as we did. Now, I don't know if we will be
|
|
able to contribute or not (it is very much up in the air). And we had
|
|
to do a lot of hacking of the source, so you might not want it if we
|
|
volunteered.
|
|
|
|
Suggestion:
|
|
Ask the Japanese group if they would like to post their changes back or
|
|
expose them so that the programming team can get ideas form it.
|
|
|
|
I actually like what they did better than what we did (A giant DLL and
|
|
all the binaries are microscopic -- it was how I suggested to do it here
|
|
but it was vetoed).
|
|
|
|
Anyway, here is a roadmap laid out for you exactly. Just do what it
|
|
says and you will be fine:
|
|
http://hp.vector.co.jp/authors/VA023283/PostgreSQLe.html
|
|
|
|
Look at where it says "Gists for patch" and do that.
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
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|
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|
|
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|
|
|
|
From markir@slingshot.co.nz Wed Jun 5 03:44:54 2002
|
|
Return-path: <markir@slingshot.co.nz>
|
|
Received: from smtp-1.attica.net.nz (pop3-1.tranzpeer.net [202.180.66.199])
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by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.10.1) with SMTP id g557iqs18525
|
|
for <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>; Wed, 5 Jun 2002 03:44:53 -0400 (EDT)
|
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Received: (qmail 93765 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2002 07:44:08 -0000
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Received: from p175.nas1.wlg.callplus.net.nz (202.180.103.175)
|
|
by pop3-1.tranzpeer.net with SMTP; 5 Jun 2002 07:44:08 -0000
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
|
|
From: Mark kirkwood <markir@slingshot.co.nz>
|
|
To: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>
|
|
In-Reply-To: <200206050433.g554XiN05245@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
References: <200206050433.g554XiN05245@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
Content-Type: text/plain
|
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
|
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X-Mailer: Evolution/1.0.2-5mdk
|
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Date: 05 Jun 2002 19:38:52 +1200
|
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Message-ID: <1023262733.1314.7.camel@spikey.slithery.org>
|
|
MIME-Version: 1.0
|
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Status: ROr
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|
|
|
On Wed, 2002-06-05 at 16:33, Bruce Momjian wrote:
|
|
> OK, I think I am now caught up on the Win32/cygwin discussion, and would
|
|
> like to make some remarks.
|
|
>
|
|
> First, are we doing enough to support the Win32 platform? I think the
|
|
> answer is clearly "no". There are 3-5 groups/companies working on Win32
|
|
> ports of PostgreSQL. We always said there would not be PostgreSQL forks
|
|
> if we were doing our job to meet user needs. Well, obviously, a number
|
|
> of groups see a need for a better Win32 port and we aren't meeting that
|
|
> need, so they are. I believe this is one of the few cases where groups
|
|
> are going out on their own because we are falling behind.
|
|
>
|
|
> So, there is no question in my mind we need to do more to encourage
|
|
> Win32 ports. Now, on to the details.
|
|
>
|
|
> INSTALLER
|
|
> ---------
|
|
>
|
|
> We clearly need an installer that is zero-hassle for users. We need to
|
|
> decide on a direction for this.
|
|
>
|
|
> GUI
|
|
> ---
|
|
>
|
|
> We need a slick GUI. pgadmin2 seems to be everyone's favorite, with
|
|
> pgaccess on Win32 also an option. What else do we need here?
|
|
>
|
|
> BINARY
|
|
> ------
|
|
>
|
|
> This is the big daddy. It is broken down into several sections:
|
|
>
|
|
> FORK()
|
|
>
|
|
> How do we handle fork()? Do we use the cygwin method that copies the
|
|
> whole data segment, or put the global data in shared memory and copy
|
|
> that small part manually after we create a new process?
|
|
>
|
|
> THREADING
|
|
>
|
|
> Related to fork(), do we implement an optionally threaded postmaster,
|
|
> which eliminates CreateProcess() entirely? I don't think we will have
|
|
> superior performance on Win32 without it. (This would greatly help
|
|
> Solaris as well.)
|
|
>
|
|
> IPC
|
|
>
|
|
> We can use Cygwin, MinGW, Apache, or our own code for this. Are there
|
|
> other options?
|
|
>
|
|
> ENVIRONMENT
|
|
>
|
|
> Lots of our code requires a unix shell and utilities. Will we continue
|
|
> using cygwin for this?
|
|
>
|
|
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
|
>
|
|
> As a roadmap, it would be good to get consensus on as many of these
|
|
> items as possible so people can start working in these areas. We can
|
|
> keep a web page of decisions we have made to help rally developers to
|
|
> the project.
|
|
>
|
|
> --
|
|
> Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
|
|
> pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000
|
|
> + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
|
|
> + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
|
|
>
|
|
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
> TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
|
|
>
|
|
> http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html
|
|
>
|
|
Is it worth looking at how the mysql crowd did their win32 port -
|
|
(or is that intrinsically a _bad_thing_ to do..) ?
|
|
|
|
(I am guessing that is why their sources requires c++ ....)
|
|
|
|
regards
|
|
|
|
Mark
|
|
|
|
|
|
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23408@postgresql.org Wed Jun 5 08:16:29 2002
|
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Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M23408@postgresql.org>
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05 Jun 2002 08:07:06 -0400
|
|
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 08:07:06 -0400
|
|
From: Jason Tishler <jason@tishler.net>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
|
|
<D90A5A6C612A39408103E6ECDD77B82906F465@voyager.corporate.connx.com>
|
|
To: Dann Corbit <DCorbit@connx.com>
|
|
cc: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,
|
|
PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Mail-Followup-To: Dann Corbit <DCorbit@connx.com>,
|
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Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,
|
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PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>
|
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Message-ID: <20020605120705.GA1544@tishler.net>
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References: <D90A5A6C612A39408103E6ECDD77B82906F465@voyager.corporate.connx.com>
|
|
Precedence: bulk
|
|
Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
|
|
Status: ROr
|
|
|
|
Dan,
|
|
|
|
The following is to help keep the archives accurate and should not be
|
|
construed as an argument against the native Win32 port.
|
|
|
|
On Tue, Jun 04, 2002 at 10:02:14PM -0700, Dann Corbit wrote:
|
|
> And Cygwin requires a license for commercial use.
|
|
> http://cygwin.com/licensing.html
|
|
|
|
The above is not necessarily true:
|
|
|
|
Red Hat sells a special Cygwin License for customers who are unable
|
|
to provide their application in open source code form.
|
|
|
|
Note that the above only comes into play if your application links
|
|
with the Cygwin DLL. This is easily avoidable by using JDBC, ODBC,
|
|
Win32 libpq, etc. Hence, most people will not be required to purchase
|
|
this license from Red Hat.
|
|
|
|
Jason
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
|
|
|
|
From Igor.Kovalenko@motorola.com Wed Jun 5 15:31:26 2002
|
|
Return-path: <Igor.Kovalenko@motorola.com>
|
|
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|
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|
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Message-ID: <11f301c20cc7$b1f73a70$22c30191@comm.mot.com>
|
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From: "Igor Kovalenko" <Igor.Kovalenko@motorola.com>
|
|
To: "Bruce Momjian" <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,
|
|
"PostgreSQL-development" <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
References: <200206050433.g554XiN05245@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
|
|
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 14:32:13 -0500
|
|
MIME-Version: 1.0
|
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Status: ROr
|
|
|
|
I might be naive here, but would not proper threading model remove the need
|
|
for fork() altogether? On both Unix and Win32? Should not be too hard to
|
|
come up with abstraction which encapsulates POSIX, BeOS and Win32 threads...
|
|
I am not sure how universal POSIX threads are by now. Any important Unix
|
|
platforms which don't support them yet?
|
|
|
|
This has downside of letting any bug to kill the whole thing. On the bright
|
|
side, performance should be better on some platforms (note however, Apache
|
|
group still can't come up with implementation of threaded model which would
|
|
provide better performance than forked or other models). The need to deal
|
|
with possibility of 'alien' postmaster running along with orphaned backends
|
|
would also be removed since there would be only one process.
|
|
|
|
Issue of thread safety of code will come up undoubtedly and some things will
|
|
probably have to be revamped. But in long term this is probably best way if
|
|
you want to have efficient and uniform Unix AND Win32 implementations.
|
|
|
|
I am not too familiar with Win32. Speaking about POSIX threads, it would be
|
|
something like a thread pool with low & high watermarks. Main thread would
|
|
handle thread pool and hand over requests to worker threads (blocked on
|
|
condvar). How does that sound?
|
|
|
|
-- igor
|
|
|
|
----- Original Message -----
|
|
From: "Bruce Momjian" <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
To: "PostgreSQL-development" <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 11:33 PM
|
|
Subject: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
|
|
|
|
|
|
> OK, I think I am now caught up on the Win32/cygwin discussion, and would
|
|
> like to make some remarks.
|
|
>
|
|
> First, are we doing enough to support the Win32 platform? I think the
|
|
> answer is clearly "no". There are 3-5 groups/companies working on Win32
|
|
> ports of PostgreSQL. We always said there would not be PostgreSQL forks
|
|
> if we were doing our job to meet user needs. Well, obviously, a number
|
|
> of groups see a need for a better Win32 port and we aren't meeting that
|
|
> need, so they are. I believe this is one of the few cases where groups
|
|
> are going out on their own because we are falling behind.
|
|
>
|
|
> So, there is no question in my mind we need to do more to encourage
|
|
> Win32 ports. Now, on to the details.
|
|
>
|
|
> INSTALLER
|
|
> ---------
|
|
>
|
|
> We clearly need an installer that is zero-hassle for users. We need to
|
|
> decide on a direction for this.
|
|
>
|
|
> GUI
|
|
> ---
|
|
>
|
|
> We need a slick GUI. pgadmin2 seems to be everyone's favorite, with
|
|
> pgaccess on Win32 also an option. What else do we need here?
|
|
>
|
|
> BINARY
|
|
> ------
|
|
>
|
|
> This is the big daddy. It is broken down into several sections:
|
|
>
|
|
> FORK()
|
|
>
|
|
> How do we handle fork()? Do we use the cygwin method that copies the
|
|
> whole data segment, or put the global data in shared memory and copy
|
|
> that small part manually after we create a new process?
|
|
>
|
|
> THREADING
|
|
>
|
|
> Related to fork(), do we implement an optionally threaded postmaster,
|
|
> which eliminates CreateProcess() entirely? I don't think we will have
|
|
> superior performance on Win32 without it. (This would greatly help
|
|
> Solaris as well.)
|
|
>
|
|
> IPC
|
|
>
|
|
> We can use Cygwin, MinGW, Apache, or our own code for this. Are there
|
|
> other options?
|
|
>
|
|
> ENVIRONMENT
|
|
>
|
|
> Lots of our code requires a unix shell and utilities. Will we continue
|
|
> using cygwin for this?
|
|
>
|
|
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
|
-
|
|
>
|
|
> As a roadmap, it would be good to get consensus on as many of these
|
|
> items as possible so people can start working in these areas. We can
|
|
> keep a web page of decisions we have made to help rally developers to
|
|
> the project.
|
|
>
|
|
> --
|
|
> Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
|
|
> pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000
|
|
> + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
|
|
> + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
|
|
>
|
|
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
> TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
|
|
>
|
|
> http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html
|
|
>
|
|
|
|
|
|
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23416@postgresql.org Wed Jun 5 16:05:36 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M23416@postgresql.org>
|
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by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.10.1) id g55K52615577;
|
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Wed, 5 Jun 2002 16:05:02 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
From: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
Message-ID: <200206052005.g55K52615577@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
|
|
In-Reply-To: <11f301c20cc7$b1f73a70$22c30191@comm.mot.com>
|
|
To: Igor Kovalenko <Igor.Kovalenko@motorola.com>
|
|
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 16:05:02 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
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|
|
Precedence: bulk
|
|
Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
|
|
Status: RO
|
|
|
|
Igor Kovalenko wrote:
|
|
> I might be naive here, but would not proper threading model remove the need
|
|
> for fork() altogether? On both Unix and Win32? Should not be too hard to
|
|
> come up with abstraction which encapsulates POSIX, BeOS and Win32 threads...
|
|
> I am not sure how universal POSIX threads are by now. Any important Unix
|
|
> platforms which don't support them yet?
|
|
>
|
|
> This has downside of letting any bug to kill the whole thing. On the bright
|
|
> side, performance should be better on some platforms (note however, Apache
|
|
> group still can't come up with implementation of threaded model which would
|
|
> provide better performance than forked or other models). The need to deal
|
|
> with possibility of 'alien' postmaster running along with orphaned backends
|
|
> would also be removed since there would be only one process.
|
|
>
|
|
> Issue of thread safety of code will come up undoubtedly and some things will
|
|
> probably have to be revamped. But in long term this is probably best way if
|
|
> you want to have efficient and uniform Unix AND Win32 implementations.
|
|
>
|
|
> I am not too familiar with Win32. Speaking about POSIX threads, it would be
|
|
> something like a thread pool with low & high watermarks. Main thread would
|
|
> handle thread pool and hand over requests to worker threads (blocked on
|
|
> condvar). How does that sound?
|
|
|
|
Good summary. I think we would support both threaded and fork()
|
|
operation, and users can control which they prefer. For a web backend
|
|
where many sessions are a single query, people may want to give up the
|
|
stability of fork() and go with threads, even on Unix.
|
|
|
|
--
|
|
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
|
|
pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000
|
|
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
|
|
+ Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org
|
|
|
|
From thomas@fourpalms.org Wed Jun 5 18:02:46 2002
|
|
Return-path: <thomas@fourpalms.org>
|
|
Received: from myst.fourpalms.org (fwuser@sentry.sonalysts.com [198.6.208.103])
|
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by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g55M2js26493
|
|
for <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>; Wed, 5 Jun 2002 18:02:45 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
Message-ID: <3CFE8A79.84738F2F@fourpalms.org>
|
|
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 15:02:33 -0700
|
|
From: Thomas Lockhart <thomas@fourpalms.org>
|
|
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.8-34.1mdk i686)
|
|
MIME-Version: 1.0
|
|
To: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
cc: Igor Kovalenko <Igor.Kovalenko@motorola.com>,
|
|
PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
|
|
References: <200206052005.g55K52615577@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
|
|
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
|
|
Status: RO
|
|
|
|
...
|
|
> Good summary. I think we would support both threaded and fork()
|
|
> operation, and users can control which they prefer. For a web backend
|
|
> where many sessions are a single query, people may want to give up the
|
|
> stability of fork() and go with threads, even on Unix.
|
|
|
|
I would think that we would build on our strengths of having a fork/exec
|
|
model for separate clients. A threaded model *could* benefit individual
|
|
clients who are doing queries on multiprocessor servers, and I would be
|
|
supportive of efforts to enable that.
|
|
|
|
But the requirements for that may be less severe than for managing
|
|
multiple clients within the same process, and imho there is not strong
|
|
requirement to enable the latter for our current crop of well supported
|
|
targets. If it came for free then great, but if it came with a high cost
|
|
then the choice is not as obvious. It is also not a *requirement* if we
|
|
were instead able to do the multiple threads for a single client
|
|
scenerio first.
|
|
|
|
- Thomas
|
|
|
|
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23421@postgresql.org Wed Jun 5 18:42:44 2002
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for <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>; Wed, 5 Jun 2002 18:21:31 -0400 (EDT)
|
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Message-ID: <3CFE8EE2.46020ACC@fourpalms.org>
|
|
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 15:21:22 -0700
|
|
From: Thomas Lockhart <thomas@fourpalms.org>
|
|
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.8-34.1mdk i686)
|
|
MIME-Version: 1.0
|
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To: Dann Corbit <DCorbit@connx.com>
|
|
cc: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,
|
|
Igor Kovalenko <Igor.Kovalenko@motorola.com>,
|
|
PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
|
|
References: <D90A5A6C612A39408103E6ECDD77B82920CF21@voyager.corporate.connx.com>
|
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...
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> Notion:
|
|
> Have one version do both. Your server can fork(), and your sever can
|
|
> thread. It can fork() and thread, it can fork() or thread.
|
|
> That gives the best of all worlds. One client who has his attachments
|
|
> to a database all setup might want to do a bunch of similar queries.
|
|
> Hence a threaded model is nice.
|
|
> A server may be set up to clone the rights of the attaching process for
|
|
> security reasons. Then you launch a new server with fork().
|
|
|
|
Right. If/when that is possible then let's do it, as long as the cost is
|
|
not too high. But the intermediate steps are a possibility also, and are
|
|
not precluded from discussion.
|
|
|
|
This will all work out as a *convergence* of interests imho. And there
|
|
is no great identifiable benefit for our current crop of platforms for
|
|
going to a threaded model *unless* that enables queries for a single
|
|
client to execute in parallel (all imho of course ;).
|
|
|
|
So our convergence of interests for all platforms is in enabling
|
|
threading for these two purposes, and focusing on enabling the
|
|
multithreaded single client *first* means that the current crop of
|
|
clients don't have to accept all negatives while we start on the road to
|
|
better support of Win32 machines.
|
|
|
|
- Thomas
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23422@postgresql.org Wed Jun 5 19:23:03 2002
|
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Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M23422@postgresql.org>
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Message-ID: <001201c20ce3$6e21bed0$a1ed03c7@dev.ngcn>
|
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From: "Jon Franz" <coventry@one.net>
|
|
To: <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
References: <200206052005.g55K52615577@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
|
|
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 18:50:46 -0400
|
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Status: RO
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|
|
One note: SGI developers discovered they could get amazing performance using
|
|
as hybrid threaded and forked-process model with apache - we might want to
|
|
look into this. They even have a library for network-communication
|
|
utilizing thier 'state threads' model. Please see:
|
|
|
|
http://state-threads.sourceforge.net/docs/st.html
|
|
|
|
Thus, on platforms where it can be supported, we should keep in mind that a
|
|
hybrid multiprocess/multithreaded postgresql might be the fastest
|
|
solution...
|
|
|
|
|
|
----- Original Message -----
|
|
From: "Bruce Momjian" <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
To: "Igor Kovalenko" <Igor.Kovalenko@motorola.com>
|
|
Cc: "PostgreSQL-development" <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 4:05 PM
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
|
|
|
|
|
|
> Igor Kovalenko wrote:
|
|
> > I might be naive here, but would not proper threading model remove the
|
|
need
|
|
> > for fork() altogether? On both Unix and Win32? Should not be too hard to
|
|
> > come up with abstraction which encapsulates POSIX, BeOS and Win32
|
|
threads...
|
|
> > I am not sure how universal POSIX threads are by now. Any important Unix
|
|
> > platforms which don't support them yet?
|
|
> >
|
|
> > This has downside of letting any bug to kill the whole thing. On the
|
|
bright
|
|
> > side, performance should be better on some platforms (note however,
|
|
Apache
|
|
> > group still can't come up with implementation of threaded model which
|
|
would
|
|
> > provide better performance than forked or other models). The need to
|
|
deal
|
|
> > with possibility of 'alien' postmaster running along with orphaned
|
|
backends
|
|
> > would also be removed since there would be only one process.
|
|
> >
|
|
> > Issue of thread safety of code will come up undoubtedly and some things
|
|
will
|
|
> > probably have to be revamped. But in long term this is probably best way
|
|
if
|
|
> > you want to have efficient and uniform Unix AND Win32 implementations.
|
|
> >
|
|
> > I am not too familiar with Win32. Speaking about POSIX threads, it would
|
|
be
|
|
> > something like a thread pool with low & high watermarks. Main thread
|
|
would
|
|
> > handle thread pool and hand over requests to worker threads (blocked on
|
|
> > condvar). How does that sound?
|
|
>
|
|
> Good summary. I think we would support both threaded and fork()
|
|
> operation, and users can control which they prefer. For a web backend
|
|
> where many sessions are a single query, people may want to give up the
|
|
> stability of fork() and go with threads, even on Unix.
|
|
>
|
|
> --
|
|
> Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
|
|
> pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000
|
|
> + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
|
|
> + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
|
|
>
|
|
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
> TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org
|
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|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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|
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23423@postgresql.org Wed Jun 5 20:10:50 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M23423@postgresql.org>
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id 13A207010; Wed, 5 Jun 2002 20:07:48 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 20:05:44 -0400
|
|
From: Neil Conway <nconway@klamath.dyndns.org>
|
|
To: "Jon Franz" <coventry@one.net>
|
|
cc: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
|
|
Message-ID: <20020605200544.4a486fe4.nconway@klamath.dyndns.org>
|
|
In-Reply-To: <001201c20ce3$6e21bed0$a1ed03c7@dev.ngcn>
|
|
References: <200206052005.g55K52615577@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
<001201c20ce3$6e21bed0$a1ed03c7@dev.ngcn>
|
|
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Status: ROr
|
|
|
|
On Wed, 5 Jun 2002 18:50:46 -0400
|
|
"Jon Franz" <coventry@one.net> wrote:
|
|
> One note: SGI developers discovered they could get amazing performance using
|
|
> as hybrid threaded and forked-process model with apache - we might want to
|
|
> look into this. They even have a library for network-communication
|
|
> utilizing thier 'state threads' model.
|
|
|
|
I think ST is designed for network I/O-bound apps -- last I checked,
|
|
disk I/O will still block an entire ST process. While you can get around
|
|
that by using another process to do disk I/O, it sounds like ST won't be
|
|
that useful.
|
|
|
|
However, Chris KL. (I believe) raised the idea of using POSIX AIO for
|
|
PostgreSQL. Without having looked into it extensively, this technique
|
|
sounds promising. Perhaps someone who has looked into this further
|
|
(e.g. someone from Redhat) can comment?
|
|
|
|
Cheers,
|
|
|
|
Neil
|
|
|
|
--
|
|
Neil Conway <neilconway@rogers.com>
|
|
PGP Key ID: DB3C29FC
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
|
|
|
|
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23424@postgresql.org Wed Jun 5 20:56:59 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M23424@postgresql.org>
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Received: from ingenico.com.au (unknown [202.167.40.101])
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for <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>; Wed, 5 Jun 2002 20:50:40 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
Message-ID: <004301c20cf4$1b8d8c10$660d090a@software.ingenico.com.au>
|
|
From: "Nicolas Bazin" <nbazin@ingenico.com.au>
|
|
To: "Jon Franz" <coventry@one.net>, <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
References: <200206052005.g55K52615577@candle.pha.pa.us> <001201c20ce3$6e21bed0$a1ed03c7@dev.ngcn>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
|
|
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 10:50:09 +1000
|
|
MIME-Version: 1.0
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|
|
|
Yes I proposed to use the GNU Pth library instead. It's an event
|
|
demultiplexer just like the sgi library, but has a posix thread interface.
|
|
This architecture is actually the more robust and also the more scalable. On
|
|
a single processor server, you don't have the multi-thread synchronization
|
|
and context switching overhead and you also take full advantage of
|
|
multi-processor servers when you create several processes. Plus you have
|
|
much less concern about global variables.
|
|
|
|
Also for those concerned about the licence of this library here is an
|
|
abstract of it:
|
|
"The author places this library under the LGPL to make sure that it
|
|
can be used both commercially and non-commercially provided that
|
|
modifications to the code base are always donated back to the official
|
|
code base under the same license conditions. Please keep in mind that
|
|
especially using this library in code not staying under the GPL or
|
|
the LGPL _is_ allowed and that any taint or license creap into code
|
|
that uses the library is not the authors intention. It is just the
|
|
case that _including_ this library into the source tree of other
|
|
applications is a little bit more inconvinient because of the LGPL.
|
|
But it has to be this way for good reasons. And keep in mind that
|
|
inconvinient doesn't mean not allowed or even impossible."
|
|
|
|
So it can be used in both commercial and non commercial project.
|
|
|
|
|
|
----- Original Message -----
|
|
From: "Jon Franz" <coventry@one.net>
|
|
To: <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 8:50 AM
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
|
|
|
|
|
|
> One note: SGI developers discovered they could get amazing performance
|
|
using
|
|
> as hybrid threaded and forked-process model with apache - we might want to
|
|
> look into this. They even have a library for network-communication
|
|
> utilizing thier 'state threads' model. Please see:
|
|
>
|
|
> http://state-threads.sourceforge.net/docs/st.html
|
|
>
|
|
> Thus, on platforms where it can be supported, we should keep in mind that
|
|
a
|
|
> hybrid multiprocess/multithreaded postgresql might be the fastest
|
|
> solution...
|
|
>
|
|
>
|
|
> ----- Original Message -----
|
|
> From: "Bruce Momjian" <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
> To: "Igor Kovalenko" <Igor.Kovalenko@motorola.com>
|
|
> Cc: "PostgreSQL-development" <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
> Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 4:05 PM
|
|
> Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
|
|
>
|
|
>
|
|
> > Igor Kovalenko wrote:
|
|
> > > I might be naive here, but would not proper threading model remove the
|
|
> need
|
|
> > > for fork() altogether? On both Unix and Win32? Should not be too hard
|
|
to
|
|
> > > come up with abstraction which encapsulates POSIX, BeOS and Win32
|
|
> threads...
|
|
> > > I am not sure how universal POSIX threads are by now. Any important
|
|
Unix
|
|
> > > platforms which don't support them yet?
|
|
> > >
|
|
> > > This has downside of letting any bug to kill the whole thing. On the
|
|
> bright
|
|
> > > side, performance should be better on some platforms (note however,
|
|
> Apache
|
|
> > > group still can't come up with implementation of threaded model which
|
|
> would
|
|
> > > provide better performance than forked or other models). The need to
|
|
> deal
|
|
> > > with possibility of 'alien' postmaster running along with orphaned
|
|
> backends
|
|
> > > would also be removed since there would be only one process.
|
|
> > >
|
|
> > > Issue of thread safety of code will come up undoubtedly and some
|
|
things
|
|
> will
|
|
> > > probably have to be revamped. But in long term this is probably best
|
|
way
|
|
> if
|
|
> > > you want to have efficient and uniform Unix AND Win32 implementations.
|
|
> > >
|
|
> > > I am not too familiar with Win32. Speaking about POSIX threads, it
|
|
would
|
|
> be
|
|
> > > something like a thread pool with low & high watermarks. Main thread
|
|
> would
|
|
> > > handle thread pool and hand over requests to worker threads (blocked
|
|
on
|
|
> > > condvar). How does that sound?
|
|
> >
|
|
> > Good summary. I think we would support both threaded and fork()
|
|
> > operation, and users can control which they prefer. For a web backend
|
|
> > where many sessions are a single query, people may want to give up the
|
|
> > stability of fork() and go with threads, even on Unix.
|
|
> >
|
|
> > --
|
|
> > Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
|
|
> > pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000
|
|
> > + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
|
|
> > + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania
|
|
19026
|
|
> >
|
|
> > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
> > TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org
|
|
>
|
|
>
|
|
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
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> TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org
|
|
>
|
|
>
|
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TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23425@postgresql.org Wed Jun 5 21:01:51 2002
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Wed, 5 Jun 2002 20:53:15 -0400 (EDT)
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From: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
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|
Message-ID: <200206060053.g560rF010370@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
|
|
In-Reply-To: <20020605200544.4a486fe4.nconway@klamath.dyndns.org>
|
|
To: Neil Conway <nconway@klamath.dyndns.org>
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Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 20:53:15 -0400 (EDT)
|
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cc: Jon Franz <coventry@one.net>, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
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Status: RO
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Neil Conway wrote:
|
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> On Wed, 5 Jun 2002 18:50:46 -0400
|
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> "Jon Franz" <coventry@one.net> wrote:
|
|
> > One note: SGI developers discovered they could get amazing performance using
|
|
> > as hybrid threaded and forked-process model with apache - we might want to
|
|
> > look into this. They even have a library for network-communication
|
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> > utilizing thier 'state threads' model.
|
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>
|
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> I think ST is designed for network I/O-bound apps -- last I checked,
|
|
> disk I/O will still block an entire ST process. While you can get around
|
|
> that by using another process to do disk I/O, it sounds like ST won't be
|
|
> that useful.
|
|
>
|
|
> However, Chris KL. (I believe) raised the idea of using POSIX AIO for
|
|
> PostgreSQL. Without having looked into it extensively, this technique
|
|
> sounds promising. Perhaps someone who has looked into this further
|
|
> (e.g. someone from Redhat) can comment?
|
|
|
|
I know Red Hat is interested in AIO. Only a few OS's support it so it
|
|
was hard to get exited about it at the time, but with threading, a
|
|
AIO-specific module could be attempted.
|
|
|
|
--
|
|
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
|
|
pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000
|
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+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
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+ Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
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TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
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http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23426@postgresql.org Wed Jun 5 21:07:19 2002
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id 0F7F3AC5A2; Wed, 5 Jun 2002 22:01:57 -0300 (EST)
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Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 22:05:11 -0300
|
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From: Steve Howe <howe@carcass.dhs.org>
|
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X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.60i)
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Reply-To: Steve Howe <howe@carcass.dhs.org>
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Organization: ACME
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Message-ID: <527177268.20020605220511@carcass.dhs.org>
|
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To: Thomas Lockhart <thomas@fourpalms.org>
|
|
cc: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,
|
|
Igor Kovalenko <Igor.Kovalenko@motorola.com>,
|
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PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
|
|
In-Reply-To: <3CFE8A79.84738F2F@fourpalms.org>
|
|
References: <200206052005.g55K52615577@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
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<3CFE8A79.84738F2F@fourpalms.org>
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Hello Thomas,
|
|
|
|
Wednesday, June 5, 2002, 7:02:33 PM, you wrote:
|
|
|
|
TL> ...
|
|
>> Good summary. I think we would support both threaded and fork()
|
|
>> operation, and users can control which they prefer. For a web backend
|
|
>> where many sessions are a single query, people may want to give up the
|
|
>> stability of fork() and go with threads, even on Unix.
|
|
|
|
TL> I would think that we would build on our strengths of having a fork/exec
|
|
TL> model for separate clients. A threaded model *could* benefit individual
|
|
TL> clients who are doing queries on multiprocessor servers, and I would be
|
|
TL> supportive of efforts to enable that.
|
|
Just a note - this is also the solution adopted by Interbase/Firebird
|
|
and it seems interesting. They already had the same problems
|
|
PostgreSQL has been under today.
|
|
Those interested in read about Interbase's architeture, please refer
|
|
to http://community.borland.com/article/0,1410,23217,00.html.
|
|
"Classic" is the fork() model, and the "SuperServer" is the threaded
|
|
model.
|
|
-------------
|
|
Best regards,
|
|
Steve Howe mailto:howe@carcass.dhs.org
|
|
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23427@postgresql.org Wed Jun 5 21:24:58 2002
|
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Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M23427@postgresql.org>
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for <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>; Wed, 5 Jun 2002 21:23:59 -0400 (EDT)
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for <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>; Wed, 5 Jun 2002 21:23:57 -0400 (EDT)
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Message-ID: <002001c20cf8$a6b86400$660d090a@software.ingenico.com.au>
|
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From: "Nicolas Bazin" <nbazin@ingenico.com.au>
|
|
To: "Nicolas Bazin" <nbazin@ingenico.com.au>, "Jon Franz" <coventry@one.net>,
|
|
<pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
References: <200206052005.g55K52615577@candle.pha.pa.us> <001201c20ce3$6e21bed0$a1ed03c7@dev.ngcn> <004301c20cf4$1b8d8c10$660d090a@software.ingenico.com.au>
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
|
|
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 11:22:40 +1000
|
|
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|
|
Gnu Pth also supports AIO
|
|
----- Original Message -----
|
|
From: "Nicolas Bazin" <nbazin@ingenico.com.au>
|
|
To: "Jon Franz" <coventry@one.net>; <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 10:50 AM
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
|
|
|
|
|
|
> Yes I proposed to use the GNU Pth library instead. It's an event
|
|
> demultiplexer just like the sgi library, but has a posix thread interface.
|
|
> This architecture is actually the more robust and also the more scalable.
|
|
On
|
|
> a single processor server, you don't have the multi-thread synchronization
|
|
> and context switching overhead and you also take full advantage of
|
|
> multi-processor servers when you create several processes. Plus you have
|
|
> much less concern about global variables.
|
|
>
|
|
> Also for those concerned about the licence of this library here is an
|
|
> abstract of it:
|
|
> "The author places this library under the LGPL to make sure that it
|
|
> can be used both commercially and non-commercially provided that
|
|
> modifications to the code base are always donated back to the official
|
|
> code base under the same license conditions. Please keep in mind that
|
|
> especially using this library in code not staying under the GPL or
|
|
> the LGPL _is_ allowed and that any taint or license creap into code
|
|
> that uses the library is not the authors intention. It is just the
|
|
> case that _including_ this library into the source tree of other
|
|
> applications is a little bit more inconvinient because of the LGPL.
|
|
> But it has to be this way for good reasons. And keep in mind that
|
|
> inconvinient doesn't mean not allowed or even impossible."
|
|
>
|
|
> So it can be used in both commercial and non commercial project.
|
|
>
|
|
>
|
|
> ----- Original Message -----
|
|
> From: "Jon Franz" <coventry@one.net>
|
|
> To: <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
> Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 8:50 AM
|
|
> Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
|
|
>
|
|
>
|
|
> > One note: SGI developers discovered they could get amazing performance
|
|
> using
|
|
> > as hybrid threaded and forked-process model with apache - we might want
|
|
to
|
|
> > look into this. They even have a library for network-communication
|
|
> > utilizing thier 'state threads' model. Please see:
|
|
> >
|
|
> > http://state-threads.sourceforge.net/docs/st.html
|
|
> >
|
|
> > Thus, on platforms where it can be supported, we should keep in mind
|
|
that
|
|
> a
|
|
> > hybrid multiprocess/multithreaded postgresql might be the fastest
|
|
> > solution...
|
|
> >
|
|
> >
|
|
> > ----- Original Message -----
|
|
> > From: "Bruce Momjian" <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
> > To: "Igor Kovalenko" <Igor.Kovalenko@motorola.com>
|
|
> > Cc: "PostgreSQL-development" <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 4:05 PM
|
|
> > Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
|
|
> >
|
|
> >
|
|
> > > Igor Kovalenko wrote:
|
|
> > > > I might be naive here, but would not proper threading model remove
|
|
the
|
|
> > need
|
|
> > > > for fork() altogether? On both Unix and Win32? Should not be too
|
|
hard
|
|
> to
|
|
> > > > come up with abstraction which encapsulates POSIX, BeOS and Win32
|
|
> > threads...
|
|
> > > > I am not sure how universal POSIX threads are by now. Any important
|
|
> Unix
|
|
> > > > platforms which don't support them yet?
|
|
> > > >
|
|
> > > > This has downside of letting any bug to kill the whole thing. On the
|
|
> > bright
|
|
> > > > side, performance should be better on some platforms (note however,
|
|
> > Apache
|
|
> > > > group still can't come up with implementation of threaded model
|
|
which
|
|
> > would
|
|
> > > > provide better performance than forked or other models). The need to
|
|
> > deal
|
|
> > > > with possibility of 'alien' postmaster running along with orphaned
|
|
> > backends
|
|
> > > > would also be removed since there would be only one process.
|
|
> > > >
|
|
> > > > Issue of thread safety of code will come up undoubtedly and some
|
|
> things
|
|
> > will
|
|
> > > > probably have to be revamped. But in long term this is probably best
|
|
> way
|
|
> > if
|
|
> > > > you want to have efficient and uniform Unix AND Win32
|
|
implementations.
|
|
> > > >
|
|
> > > > I am not too familiar with Win32. Speaking about POSIX threads, it
|
|
> would
|
|
> > be
|
|
> > > > something like a thread pool with low & high watermarks. Main thread
|
|
> > would
|
|
> > > > handle thread pool and hand over requests to worker threads (blocked
|
|
> on
|
|
> > > > condvar). How does that sound?
|
|
> > >
|
|
> > > Good summary. I think we would support both threaded and fork()
|
|
> > > operation, and users can control which they prefer. For a web backend
|
|
> > > where many sessions are a single query, people may want to give up the
|
|
> > > stability of fork() and go with threads, even on Unix.
|
|
> > >
|
|
> > > --
|
|
> > > Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
|
|
> > > pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000
|
|
> > > + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
|
|
> > > + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania
|
|
> 19026
|
|
> > >
|
|
> > > ---------------------------(end of
|
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broadcast)---------------------------
|
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> > > TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to
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> >
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> >
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> >
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> >
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>
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>
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>
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> TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
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>
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>
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23428@postgresql.org Wed Jun 5 21:36:56 2002
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Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M23428@postgresql.org>
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Received: from postgresql.org (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
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Received: from localhost.localdomain (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
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id BDDA2BE8C8; Wed, 5 Jun 2002 22:34:02 -0300 (EST)
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Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 22:37:17 -0300
|
|
From: Steve Howe <howe@carcass.dhs.org>
|
|
X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.60i)
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Reply-To: Steve Howe <howe@carcass.dhs.org>
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Organization: ACME
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Message-ID: <17029102737.20020605223717@carcass.dhs.org>
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To: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
|
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In-Reply-To: <200206050433.g554XiN05245@candle.pha.pa.us>
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Hello Bruce,
|
|
|
|
Wednesday, June 5, 2002, 1:33:44 AM, you wrote:
|
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BM> INSTALLER
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BM> ---------
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BM> We clearly need an installer that is zero-hassle for users. We need to
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BM> decide on a direction for this.
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I suggest Nullsoft install system
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(http://www.nullsoft.com/free/nsis/). It's real good and very simple
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to use. I can help on this if you want.
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BM> ENVIRONMENT
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BM> Lots of our code requires a unix shell and utilities. Will we continue
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BM> using cygwin for this?
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There are other ports ( http://unxutils.sourceforge.net/ ) that won't
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require Cygwin but they won't provide an environment so complete as
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Cygwin does.
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I also would like to empathize that probably a small GUI for
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controlling the PostgreSQL service/application would be nice. I think
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about something sitting in the system tray like MSSQL, Oracle,
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Interbase, etc. does.
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I could code this in Delphi if you like. I don't have experience in
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writing GUI apps in C. There is an open source versions of Delphi so
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it won't be a problem compiling it.
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Also coming with this, a code for starting the PostgreSQL as a service
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would be really nice. For those from UNIX world that don't know what a
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service is, think about it as a daemon for Windows. A service can be
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automatically started when the machine boots up.
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-------------
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Best regards,
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Steve Howe mailto:howe@carcass.dhs.org
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---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
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TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives?
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http://archives.postgresql.org
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23429@postgresql.org Wed Jun 5 22:54:37 2002
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Wed, 5 Jun 2002 21:53:39 -0500 (CDT)
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Message-ID: <129501c20d05$7a671a10$22c30191@comm.mot.com>
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From: "Igor Kovalenko" <Igor.Kovalenko@motorola.com>
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To: "Neil Conway" <nconway@klamath.dyndns.org>, "Jon Franz" <coventry@one.net>
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cc: <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
References: <200206052005.g55K52615577@candle.pha.pa.us><001201c20ce3$6e21bed0$a1ed03c7@dev.ngcn> <20020605200544.4a486fe4.nconway@klamath.dyndns.org>
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
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Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 21:54:29 -0500
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MIME-Version: 1.0
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Status: ROr
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|
I think SGI gets amazing performance because they have very good (efficient)
|
|
synchronisation primitives on SGI. Some proprietary light-weight mutexes.
|
|
Using threaded or mixed model just by itself is not going to do a miracle.
|
|
Threads will save you some context switch time, but that will probably
|
|
translate into lower CPU usage rather than performance boost. And if your
|
|
mutexes are not fast or awkwardly implemented (say Linux), it might be even
|
|
worse. Apache is not all that fast on Linux as on SGI, whatever model you
|
|
chose. I also doubt that purely threaded model would be slower than mixed
|
|
one.
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|
|
Now about the AIO model. It is useful when you need to do something else
|
|
while I/O requests are being processed as long as platform does it in some
|
|
useful way. If all you can do is to submit requests and keep sitting in
|
|
select/poll then AIO does not buy you anything you can't get by just using
|
|
threaded model. However, if you can tag the requests and set up
|
|
notifications, then few I/O threads could handle relatively large number of
|
|
requests from different clients. Note, this means you don't have any
|
|
association between clients and servers at all, there is pool of generic I/O
|
|
threads which serve requests from whoever they come. It saves system
|
|
resources and scales very well. It also provides interesting possibilities
|
|
for fault recovery - since handlers are generic all the state information
|
|
would have to be kept in some kind of global context area. That area can be
|
|
saved into persistent memory or dumped onto disk and *recovered* after a
|
|
forced restart. Server and library could be designed in such a way that
|
|
clients may continue where they left with a recoverable error.
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|
|
In POSIX AIO model you can tag requests and set up notifications via
|
|
synchronous signals. You wait for them *synchronously* in 'waiter' thread
|
|
via sigwaitinfo() and avoid the headache of asynchronous signals hitting you
|
|
any time... Unfortunately on some platforms (Solaris) the depth of
|
|
synchronous signal queue is fixed at magic value 32 (and not adjustable).
|
|
This may not be a problem if you're sure that waiting thread will be able to
|
|
drain the queue faster than it gets filled with notifications... but I'm not
|
|
sure there is a portable way to guarantee that, so you need to check for
|
|
overloads and handle them... that complicates things. On Solaris you also
|
|
need a mile of compiler/linker switches to even get this scheme to work and
|
|
I am afraid other platforms may not support it at all (but then again, they
|
|
may not support AIO to begin with).
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|
|
|
And speaking about getting best of all worlds. Note how Apache spent nearly
|
|
3 years developing their portable Multi-Processing Modules scheme. What they
|
|
got for that is handful of models neither of which perform noticeably better
|
|
than original pre-fork() model. Trying to swallow all possible ways to
|
|
handle things on all possible platforms usually does not produce very fast
|
|
code. It tends to produce very complex code with mediocre performance and
|
|
introduces extra complexity into configuration process. If you consider all
|
|
that was done mostly to support Win32, one might doubt if it was worth the
|
|
while.
|
|
|
|
What I am trying to say is, extra complexity in model to squeeze few percent
|
|
of performance is not a wise investment of time and efforts. On Win32 you
|
|
don't really compete in terms of performance. You compete in terms of
|
|
easyness and features. Spend 3 years trying to support Windows and Unix in
|
|
most optimal way including all subvariants of Unix ... meanwhile MSFT will
|
|
come up with some bundled SQL server. It probably will have more features
|
|
since they will spend time doing features rather than inventing a model to
|
|
support gazillion of platforms. Chances are, it will be faster too - due to
|
|
better integration with OS and better compiler.
|
|
|
|
I am not in position to tell you what to do guys. But if I was asked, I'd
|
|
say supporting Win32 is only worth it if it comes as a natural result of a
|
|
simple, coherent and uniform model applied to Unix. Threaded model may not
|
|
have as much inherent stability as forked/mixed, but it has inherent
|
|
simplicity and better Unix/Windows/BeOS portability. It can be done faster
|
|
and simpler code will make work on features easier.
|
|
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|
Regards,
|
|
- Igor
|
|
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|
"There are 2 ways to design an efficient system - first is to design it so
|
|
complex that there are no obvious deficiencies, second is to design it so
|
|
simple that there are obviously no deficiencies. Second way is much harder"
|
|
(author unknown to me)
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|
|
|
|
|
----- Original Message -----
|
|
From: "Neil Conway" <nconway@klamath.dyndns.org>
|
|
To: "Jon Franz" <coventry@one.net>
|
|
Cc: <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 7:05 PM
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
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|
|
> On Wed, 5 Jun 2002 18:50:46 -0400
|
|
> "Jon Franz" <coventry@one.net> wrote:
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|
> > One note: SGI developers discovered they could get amazing performance
|
|
using
|
|
> > as hybrid threaded and forked-process model with apache - we might want
|
|
to
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|
> > look into this. They even have a library for network-communication
|
|
> > utilizing thier 'state threads' model.
|
|
>
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|
> I think ST is designed for network I/O-bound apps -- last I checked,
|
|
> disk I/O will still block an entire ST process. While you can get around
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> that by using another process to do disk I/O, it sounds like ST won't be
|
|
> that useful.
|
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>
|
|
> However, Chris KL. (I believe) raised the idea of using POSIX AIO for
|
|
> PostgreSQL. Without having looked into it extensively, this technique
|
|
> sounds promising. Perhaps someone who has looked into this further
|
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> (e.g. someone from Redhat) can comment?
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|
>
|
|
> Cheers,
|
|
>
|
|
> Neil
|
|
>
|
|
> --
|
|
> Neil Conway <neilconway@rogers.com>
|
|
> PGP Key ID: DB3C29FC
|
|
>
|
|
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
> TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
|
|
>
|
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|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives?
|
|
|
|
http://archives.postgresql.org
|
|
|
|
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23430@postgresql.org Wed Jun 5 22:58:30 2002
|
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Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M23430@postgresql.org>
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for pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org; Wed, 5 Jun 2002 22:57:00 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
From: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
Message-ID: <200206060257.g562v0q28990@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
|
|
In-Reply-To: <200206050433.g554XiN05245@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
To: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 22:57:00 -0400 (EDT)
|
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Status: RO
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Here is a summary of the responses to my Win32 roadmap. I hope this
|
|
will allow further discussion.
|
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|
|
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
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|
|
INSTALLER
|
|
---------
|
|
Cygwin Setup.exe http://cygwin.com
|
|
Nullsoft http://www.nullsoft.com/free/nsis/
|
|
|
|
GUI
|
|
---
|
|
pgAdmin2 http://pgadmin.postgresql.org/pgadmin2.php?ContentID=1
|
|
pgaccess http://pgaccess.org/
|
|
Java admin (to be written)
|
|
Dev-C++ admin (to be written) http://sourceforge.net/projects/dev-cpp/
|
|
|
|
BINARY
|
|
------
|
|
|
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|
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FORK()
|
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|
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cygwin fork() http://cygwin.com
|
|
CreateProcess() and copy global area
|
|
|
|
THREADING
|
|
|
|
Posix threads
|
|
Gnu pth http://www.gnu.org/software/pth/
|
|
ST http://state-threads.sourceforge.net/docs/st.html
|
|
(single-session multi-threading possible)
|
|
(Posix AIO is possible)
|
|
|
|
IPC
|
|
|
|
Cygwin http://cygwin.com
|
|
MinGW http://www.mingw.org/
|
|
ACE http://www.cs.wustl.edu/~schmidt/ACE.html
|
|
APR http://apr.apache.org/
|
|
Our own
|
|
|
|
ENVIRONMENT
|
|
|
|
Cygwin http://cygwin.com
|
|
UnxUtils http://unxutils.sourceforge.net/
|
|
Write own initdb
|
|
|
|
|
|
IMPLEMENTATIONS
|
|
---------------
|
|
PostgreSQLe http://hp.vector.co.jp/authors/VA023283/PostgreSQLe.html
|
|
Dbexperts http://www.dbexperts.net/postgresql
|
|
Connx http://www.connx.com/
|
|
gborg http://gborg.postgresql.org/project/winpackage/projdisplay.php
|
|
Interbase http://community.borland.com/article/0,1410,23217,00.html
|
|
|
|
--
|
|
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
|
|
pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000
|
|
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
|
|
+ Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org
|
|
|
|
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23432@postgresql.org Thu Jun 6 01:01:09 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M23432@postgresql.org>
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Thu, 6 Jun 2002 00:59:36 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
From: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
Message-ID: <200206060459.g564xaS09100@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
|
|
In-Reply-To: <129501c20d05$7a671a10$22c30191@comm.mot.com>
|
|
To: Igor Kovalenko <Igor.Kovalenko@motorola.com>
|
|
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 00:59:36 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
cc: Neil Conway <nconway@klamath.dyndns.org>, Jon Franz <coventry@one.net>,
|
|
pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
|
|
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL97 (25)]
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Status: RO
|
|
|
|
Igor Kovalenko wrote:
|
|
> I think SGI gets amazing performance because they have very good (efficient)
|
|
> synchronization primitives on SGI. Some proprietary light-weight mutexes.
|
|
> Using threaded or mixed model just by itself is not going to do a miracle.
|
|
> Threads will save you some context switch time, but that will probably
|
|
> translate into lower CPU usage rather than performance boost. And if your
|
|
> mutexes are not fast or awkwardly implemented (say Linux), it might be even
|
|
> worse. Apache is not all that fast on Linux as on SGI, whatever model you
|
|
> chose. I also doubt that purely threaded model would be slower than mixed
|
|
> one.
|
|
|
|
Let me throw out an idea. I have been mentioning full fork, light
|
|
fork(copy globals only), and threading as possible solutions.
|
|
|
|
Another idea uses neither threading nor copying. It is the old system
|
|
we used before I removed exec() from our code. We used to pass the
|
|
database name as an argument to an exec'ed postgres binary that
|
|
continued with the database connection.
|
|
|
|
We removed the exec, then started moving what we could into the
|
|
postmaster so each backend didn't need to do the initialization.
|
|
|
|
One solution is to return to that for Win32 only, so instead of doing:
|
|
|
|
initialization()
|
|
want for connection()
|
|
fork backend()
|
|
|
|
we do for Win32:
|
|
|
|
want for connection()
|
|
exec backend()
|
|
initialization()
|
|
|
|
It wouldn't be hard to do. We would still do CreateProcess rather than
|
|
CreateThread, but it eliminates the fork/threading issues. We don't
|
|
know the database before the connection arrives, so we don't do a whole
|
|
lot of initialization.
|
|
|
|
--
|
|
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
|
|
pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000
|
|
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
|
|
+ Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
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|
|
|
http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html
|
|
|
|
From janwieck@yahoo.com Thu Jun 6 09:40:20 2002
|
|
Return-path: <janwieck@yahoo.com>
|
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Received: from smtp018.mail.yahoo.com (smtp018.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.174.115])
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for <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>; Thu, 6 Jun 2002 09:40:19 -0400 (EDT)
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Thu, 6 Jun 2002 09:35:15 -0400
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From: Jan Wieck <janwieck@yahoo.com>
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Message-ID: <200206061335.g56DZFt26403@saturn.janwieck.net>
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
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In-Reply-To: <200206060459.g564xaS09100@candle.pha.pa.us> from Bruce Momjian
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at "Jun 6, 2002 00:59:36 am"
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To: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
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Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 09:35:14 -0400 (EDT)
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cc: Igor Kovalenko <Igor.Kovalenko@motorola.com>,
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Neil Conway <nconway@klamath.dyndns.org>, Jon Franz <coventry@one.net>,
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pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
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X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL68 (25)]
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MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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Status: RO
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Bruce Momjian wrote:
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>
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> Let me throw out an idea. I have been mentioning full fork, light
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> fork(copy globals only), and threading as possible solutions.
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>
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> Another idea uses neither threading nor copying. It is the old system
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> we used before I removed exec() from our code. We used to pass the
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> database name as an argument to an exec'ed postgres binary that
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> continued with the database connection.
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>
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> We removed the exec, then started moving what we could into the
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> postmaster so each backend didn't need to do the initialization.
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>
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> One solution is to return to that for Win32 only, so instead of doing:
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>
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> initialization()
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> want for connection()
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> fork backend()
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>
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> we do for Win32:
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>
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> want for connection()
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> exec backend()
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> initialization()
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Summarizes pretty much what we discussed Monday on the phone.
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Except that the postmaster still has to initialize the shared
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memory and other stuff. It's just that the backends and
|
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helper processes need to reinitialize themself (attach).
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> It wouldn't be hard to do. We would still do CreateProcess rather than
|
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> CreateThread, but it eliminates the fork/threading issues. We don't
|
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> know the database before the connection arrives, so we don't do a whole
|
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> lot of initialization.
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All I see so far is the reading of the postgresql.conf, the
|
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pg_hba.conf and the password files. Nothing fancy and the
|
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postmaster could easily write out a binary content only file
|
|
that the backends then read, eliminating the parsing
|
|
overhead.
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|
|
|
The bad news is that Tom is right. We did a terrible job in
|
|
using the new side effect, that the shared memory segment is
|
|
at the same address in all forked processes, after removing
|
|
the need to reattach.
|
|
|
|
In detail the XLog code, the FreeSpaceMap code and the
|
|
"shared memory" hashtable code now use pointers, located in
|
|
shared memory. For the XLog and FreeSpace code this is
|
|
understandable, because they where developed under the fork()
|
|
only model. But the dynahash code used offsets only until
|
|
v7.1!
|
|
|
|
All three (no claim that that's all) make it impossible to
|
|
ever have someone attaching to the shared memory from the
|
|
outside. So with these moves we made the shared memory a
|
|
"Postmaster and children" only thing. Raises the question,
|
|
why we need an IPC key at all any more.
|
|
|
|
Anyhow, looks as if I can get that fork() vs. fork()+exec()
|
|
feature done pretty soon. It'll be controlled by another
|
|
Postmaster commandline switch. After cleaning up the mess I
|
|
did to get it working quick, I'll provide a patch for
|
|
discussion.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jan
|
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|
|
--
|
|
|
|
#======================================================================#
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# It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. #
|
|
# Let's break this rule - forgive me. #
|
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#================================================== JanWieck@Yahoo.com #
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|
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23442@postgresql.org Thu Jun 6 11:14:35 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M23442@postgresql.org>
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Thu, 6 Jun 2002 11:06:18 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
From: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
Message-ID: <200206061506.g56F6IW10267@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
|
|
In-Reply-To: <200206061335.g56DZFt26403@saturn.janwieck.net>
|
|
To: Jan Wieck <janwieck@yahoo.com>
|
|
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 11:06:18 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
cc: Igor Kovalenko <Igor.Kovalenko@motorola.com>,
|
|
Neil Conway <nconway@klamath.dyndns.org>, Jon Franz <coventry@one.net>,
|
|
pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
|
|
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL97 (25)]
|
|
MIME-Version: 1.0
|
|
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
|
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
|
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Precedence: bulk
|
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Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
|
|
Status: RO
|
|
|
|
Jan Wieck wrote:
|
|
> > One solution is to return to that for Win32 only, so instead of doing:
|
|
> >
|
|
> > initialization()
|
|
> > want for connection()
|
|
> > fork backend()
|
|
> >
|
|
> > we do for Win32:
|
|
> >
|
|
> > want for connection()
|
|
> > exec backend()
|
|
> > initialization()
|
|
>
|
|
> Summarizes pretty much what we discussed Monday on the phone.
|
|
> Except that the postmaster still has to initialize the shared
|
|
> memory and other stuff. It's just that the backends and
|
|
> helper processes need to reinitialize themself (attach).
|
|
|
|
Yes, obviously I simplified, and I do believe our optimizations are
|
|
helping on Unix. It is just that I think for Win32 the fork is more
|
|
harmful than removing those optimizations.
|
|
|
|
One thing that may not have been clear is that we don't need to play
|
|
with globals at all. We just pass whatever info we want to the child
|
|
via command-line arguments, rather than shared memory.
|
|
|
|
> > It wouldn't be hard to do. We would still do CreateProcess rather than
|
|
> > CreateThread, but it eliminates the fork/threading issues. We don't
|
|
> > know the database before the connection arrives, so we don't do a whole
|
|
> > lot of initialization.
|
|
>
|
|
> All I see so far is the reading of the postgresql.conf, the
|
|
> pg_hba.conf and the password files. Nothing fancy and the
|
|
> postmaster could easily write out a binary content only file
|
|
> that the backends then read, eliminating the parsing
|
|
> overhead.
|
|
|
|
Yes, that is clearly possible. Another option is to just write out a
|
|
no-comments, no-whitespace version of each file and just have the
|
|
backends read those. The advantage is that we can use the same code to
|
|
read them, and I don't think it would be any slower than a binary file.
|
|
|
|
> The bad news is that Tom is right. We did a terrible job in
|
|
> using the new side effect, that the shared memory segment is
|
|
> at the same address in all forked processes, after removing
|
|
> the need to reattach.
|
|
>
|
|
> In detail the XLog code, the FreeSpaceMap code and the
|
|
> "shared memory" hashtable code now use pointers, located in
|
|
> shared memory. For the XLog and FreeSpace code this is
|
|
> understandable, because they where developed under the fork()
|
|
> only model. But the dynahash code used offsets only until
|
|
> v7.1!
|
|
>
|
|
> All three (no claim that that's all) make it impossible to
|
|
> ever have someone attaching to the shared memory from the
|
|
> outside. So with these moves we made the shared memory a
|
|
> "Postmaster and children" only thing. Raises the question,
|
|
> why we need an IPC key at all any more.
|
|
|
|
Well, we could force shmat() to bind to the same address, but I suspect
|
|
that might fail in some cases.
|
|
|
|
> Anyhow, looks as if I can get that fork() vs. fork()+exec()
|
|
> feature done pretty soon. It'll be controlled by another
|
|
> Postmaster commandline switch. After cleaning up the mess I
|
|
> did to get it working quick, I'll provide a patch for
|
|
> discussion.
|
|
|
|
Yes, very little impact. We then need someone to do some Win32 timings
|
|
to see if things have improved. As Tom mentioned, we need some hard
|
|
numbers for these things. In fact, I would like a Win32 test that takes
|
|
our code and compares fork(), then exit(), with CreateProcess(), exit().
|
|
It doesn't have create a db session, but I would like to see some
|
|
timings to know what we are gaining. Heck, time CreateThread too and
|
|
let's see what that shows.
|
|
|
|
--
|
|
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
|
|
pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000
|
|
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
|
|
+ Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
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TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
|
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subscribe-nomail command to majordomo@postgresql.org so that your
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|
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23447@postgresql.org Thu Jun 6 13:18:53 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M23447@postgresql.org>
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Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 19:11:12 +0200 (CEST)
|
|
From: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
|
|
X-X-Sender: peter@localhost.localdomain
|
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To: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
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cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
|
|
In-Reply-To: <200206050433.g554XiN05245@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0206061855500.838-100000@localhost.localdomain>
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Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
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Status: ROr
|
|
|
|
Bruce Momjian writes:
|
|
|
|
> Lots of our code requires a unix shell and utilities. Will we continue
|
|
> using cygwin for this?
|
|
|
|
We should probably get rid of using shell scripts for application programs
|
|
altogether, for a number of reasons besides this one, such as the
|
|
inability to properly handle input values with spaces, commas, etc. (we
|
|
probably don't handle very long values either on some platforms), the
|
|
inability to maintain open database connections so that createlang needs
|
|
to prompt for the same password thrice, general portable scripting
|
|
headaches, and the lack of internationalization facilities.
|
|
|
|
I'd even volunteer to do this. Comments?
|
|
|
|
--
|
|
Peter Eisentraut peter_e@gmx.net
|
|
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23453@postgresql.org Thu Jun 6 15:28:52 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M23453@postgresql.org>
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Thu, 6 Jun 2002 13:57:05 -0400 (EDT)
|
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From: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
Message-ID: <200206061757.g56Hv5D27106@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
|
|
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0206061855500.838-100000@localhost.localdomain>
|
|
To: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
|
|
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 13:57:05 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
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X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL97 (25)]
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Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
|
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Status: RO
|
|
|
|
Peter Eisentraut wrote:
|
|
> Bruce Momjian writes:
|
|
>
|
|
> > Lots of our code requires a unix shell and utilities. Will we continue
|
|
> > using cygwin for this?
|
|
>
|
|
> We should probably get rid of using shell scripts for application programs
|
|
> altogether, for a number of reasons besides this one, such as the
|
|
> inability to properly handle input values with spaces, commas, etc. (we
|
|
> probably don't handle very long values either on some platforms), the
|
|
> inability to maintain open database connections so that createlang needs
|
|
> to prompt for the same password thrice, general portable scripting
|
|
> headaches, and the lack of internationalization facilities.
|
|
>
|
|
> I'd even volunteer to do this. Comments?
|
|
|
|
I know I have discouraged it because I think shell script language has a
|
|
good toolset for those applications. I have fixed all the spacing
|
|
issues.
|
|
|
|
What language where you thinking of using? C?
|
|
|
|
Also, it seems Win32 doesn't need these scripts, except initdb.
|
|
PostgreSQLe didn't use the, it just did initdb, and the rest were done
|
|
using a GUI. However, initdb would remain a problem. PostgreSQLe wrote
|
|
its own.
|
|
|
|
--
|
|
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
|
|
pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000
|
|
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
|
|
+ Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
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http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23466@postgresql.org Fri Jun 7 03:43:24 2002
|
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
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Message-ID: <D85C66DA59BA044EB96AB9683819CF610150CB@dogbert.vale-housing.co.uk>
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Thread-Topic: Roadmap for a Win32 port
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Thread-Index: AcINqHe1e6l54BF0TYqaBR+Lc+A3PwATWOng
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From: "Dave Page" <dpage@vale-housing.co.uk>
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To: "Steve Howe" <howe@carcass.dhs.org>,
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"Bruce Momjian" <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
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cc: "PostgreSQL-development" <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
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Precedence: bulk
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Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
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Status: RO
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> -----Original Message-----
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> From: Steve Howe [mailto:howe@carcass.dhs.org]
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> Sent: 06 June 2002 02:37
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> To: Bruce Momjian
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> Cc: PostgreSQL-development
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> Subject: Re: Roadmap for a Win32 port
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>
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>
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> Hello Bruce,
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>
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> Wednesday, June 5, 2002, 1:33:44 AM, you wrote:
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>
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> BM> INSTALLER
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> BM> ---------
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>
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> BM> We clearly need an installer that is zero-hassle for
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> users. We need
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> BM> to decide on a direction for this.
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> I suggest Nullsoft install system
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> (http://www.nullsoft.com/free/nsis/). It's > real good and very
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> simple to use. I can help on this if you want.
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I think that a Windows Installer compatible package would be better as
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it would allow us to build the package as a merge module which others
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could use in their installers for their PostgreSQL based apps, allowing
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one installation to install everything they require easily and (more
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importantly) correctly. An example of this can be found in the psqlODBC
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installer.
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I can handle this if required.
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> BM> ENVIRONMENT
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>
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> I also would like to empathize that probably a small GUI for
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> controlling the PostgreSQL service/application would be nice.
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I'm happy to add such code to pgAdmin - seems like the natural thing to
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do (to me at least!).
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Regards, Dave.
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---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23560@postgresql.org Mon Jun 10 10:09:49 2002
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Mailbox-Line: From ss@technicalpursuit.com Fri Jun 7 18:08:40 2002
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Message-ID: <032201c20e6f$815a1b40$80c310ac@idearatxp>
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From: "Scott Shattuck" <ss@technicalpursuit.com>
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To: "PostgreSQL-development" <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
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References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0206062106400.1028-100000@localhost.localdomain>
|
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
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Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 16:05:58 -0600
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Status: RO
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How about a SOAP interface and a web-based front end that provides the cross
|
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platform support? My company's TIBET framework would provide a solid
|
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foundation for this kind of admin suite. In fact, we're already in the
|
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planning stages on doing just that.
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|
|
ss
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|
Scott Shattuck
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|
Technical Pursuit Inc.
|
|
|
|
|
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----- Original Message -----
|
|
From: "Peter Eisentraut" <peter_e@gmx.net>
|
|
To: "Bruce Momjian" <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
Cc: "PostgreSQL-development" <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>
|
|
Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 11:42 AM
|
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
|
|
|
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> Bruce Momjian writes:
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>
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> > GUI
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> > ---
|
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> > pgAdmin2
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http://pgadmin.postgresql.org/pgadmin2.php?ContentID=1
|
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> > pgaccess http://pgaccess.org/
|
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> > Java admin (to be written)
|
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> > Dev-C++ admin (to be written)
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|
http://sourceforge.net/projects/dev-cpp/
|
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>
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> Surely Unix folks would like a GUI as well?
|
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>
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> --
|
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> Peter Eisentraut peter_e@gmx.net
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>
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>
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|
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
> TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org
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---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23489@postgresql.org Fri Jun 7 18:31:35 2002
|
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Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 00:27:59 +0200 (CEST)
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From: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
|
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To: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
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cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
|
|
In-Reply-To: <200206061757.g56Hv5D27106@candle.pha.pa.us>
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Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0206072008310.935-100000@localhost.localdomain>
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Status: ROr
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|
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Bruce Momjian writes:
|
|
|
|
> I know I have discouraged it because I think shell script language has a
|
|
> good toolset for those applications. I have fixed all the spacing
|
|
> issues.
|
|
|
|
My point is that it is not, for the reasons that I listed. Handling
|
|
spaces is a small part of one of the several problems, there are problems
|
|
with newlines, tabs, commas, slashes, quotes -- everytime you call sed or
|
|
read you lose one character.
|
|
|
|
> What language where you thinking of using? C?
|
|
|
|
Yes, that way we can share code (pg_dumpall<->pg_dump, initdb<->postgres),
|
|
use the established internationalization facilities, and use libpq
|
|
directly in create* and drop*.
|
|
|
|
> Also, it seems Win32 doesn't need these scripts, except initdb.
|
|
|
|
The utility of these programs is independent of the platform. If we think
|
|
pg_dumpall is not useful, then let's remove it.
|
|
|
|
--
|
|
Peter Eisentraut peter_e@gmx.net
|
|
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
|
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|
From tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us Sat Jun 8 11:48:49 2002
|
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Return-path: <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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Received: from sss.pgh.pa.us (root@[192.204.191.242])
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Sat, 8 Jun 2002 11:48:21 -0400 (EDT)
|
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To: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
|
|
cc: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,
|
|
PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
|
|
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0206072008310.935-100000@localhost.localdomain>
|
|
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0206072008310.935-100000@localhost.localdomain>
|
|
Comments: In-reply-to Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
|
|
message dated "Sat, 08 Jun 2002 00:27:59 +0200"
|
|
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 11:48:20 -0400
|
|
Message-ID: <13966.1023551300@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
|
From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
|
Status: ROr
|
|
|
|
Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net> writes:
|
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>> Also, it seems Win32 doesn't need these scripts, except initdb.
|
|
|
|
> The utility of these programs is independent of the platform. If we think
|
|
> pg_dumpall is not useful, then let's remove it.
|
|
|
|
I have been seriously considering converting pg_dumpall to C anyway,
|
|
because it's already *very* messy, and I don't see any reasonable
|
|
way to make it support dumping per-database and per-user config
|
|
settings. (Do you really want to try to parse array values in a
|
|
shell script?)
|
|
|
|
(I'd actually consider making pg_dumpall a part of the pg_dump
|
|
executable; then it could invoke pg_dump as a subroutine call...)
|
|
|
|
If Peter's got the time/energy to convert 'em all, I'm for it.
|
|
|
|
regards, tom lane
|
|
|
|
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23524@postgresql.org Sat Jun 8 17:48:57 2002
|
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Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M23524@postgresql.org>
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Sat, 8 Jun 2002 17:48:12 -0400 (EDT)
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From: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
Message-ID: <200206082148.g58LmCa13018@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
|
|
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0206072008310.935-100000@localhost.localdomain>
|
|
To: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
|
|
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 17:48:12 -0400 (EDT)
|
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cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
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Status: ROr
|
|
|
|
Peter Eisentraut wrote:
|
|
> Bruce Momjian writes:
|
|
>
|
|
> > I know I have discouraged it because I think shell script language has a
|
|
> > good toolset for those applications. I have fixed all the spacing
|
|
> > issues.
|
|
>
|
|
> My point is that it is not, for the reasons that I listed. Handling
|
|
> spaces is a small part of one of the several problems, there are problems
|
|
> with newlines, tabs, commas, slashes, quotes -- everytime you call sed or
|
|
> read you lose one character.
|
|
>
|
|
> > What language where you thinking of using? C?
|
|
>
|
|
> Yes, that way we can share code (pg_dumpall<->pg_dump, initdb<->postgres),
|
|
> use the established internationalization facilities, and use libpq
|
|
> directly in create* and drop*.
|
|
>
|
|
> > Also, it seems Win32 doesn't need these scripts, except initdb.
|
|
>
|
|
> The utility of these programs is independent of the platform. If we think
|
|
> pg_dumpall is not useful, then let's remove it.
|
|
|
|
I think the first two targets for C-ification would be pg_dumpall and
|
|
initdb. The others have SQL equivalents. Maybe pg_ctl too.
|
|
|
|
--
|
|
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
|
|
pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000
|
|
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
|
|
+ Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
|
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---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives?
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|
http://archives.postgresql.org
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23541@postgresql.org Sun Jun 9 07:10:14 2002
|
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
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Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 11:38:26 +0100
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Thread-Topic: Roadmap for a Win32 port
|
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Thread-Index: AcIPOqo6zyhIgICZRXi+W7OR5HfNigAZldCg
|
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From: "Dave Page" <dpage@vale-housing.co.uk>
|
|
To: "Bruce Momjian" <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,
|
|
"Peter Eisentraut" <peter_e@gmx.net>
|
|
cc: "PostgreSQL-development" <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Precedence: bulk
|
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Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
|
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
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X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by candle.pha.pa.us id g59BAEs18595
|
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Status: RO
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
> -----Original Message-----
|
|
> From: Bruce Momjian [mailto:pgman@candle.pha.pa.us]
|
|
> Sent: 08 June 2002 22:48
|
|
> To: Peter Eisentraut
|
|
> Cc: PostgreSQL-development
|
|
> Subject: Re: Roadmap for a Win32 port
|
|
>
|
|
>
|
|
> >
|
|
> > > Also, it seems Win32 doesn't need these scripts, except initdb.
|
|
> >
|
|
> > The utility of these programs is independent of the
|
|
> platform. If we
|
|
> > think pg_dumpall is not useful, then let's remove it.
|
|
>
|
|
> I think the first two targets for C-ification would be
|
|
> pg_dumpall and initdb. The others have SQL equivalents.
|
|
> Maybe pg_ctl too.
|
|
|
|
I looked at this issue some time ago & came to the conclusion that the
|
|
only scripts that Win32 really needed were pg_dumpall, initdb &
|
|
initlocation.
|
|
|
|
The others have SQL equivalents as you say, apart from pg_ctl which
|
|
under Windows should probably (and generally is) be replaced by the SCM
|
|
(Service Control Manager). The only thing that comes to mind that the
|
|
SCM can't do is a reload.
|
|
|
|
Regards, Dave.
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23406@postgresql.org Wed Jun 5 01:06:31 2002
|
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Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M23406@postgresql.org>
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MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Type: text/plain;
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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Subject: [HACKERS] Cooperation
|
|
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.4712.0
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Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 22:06:31 -0700
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Message-ID: <D90A5A6C612A39408103E6ECDD77B82920CF1A@voyager.corporate.connx.com>
|
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Thread-Topic: Cooperation
|
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Thread-Index: AcIMTsGaRnYrKZMWTBSGbLPlP1vlAQ==
|
|
From: "Dann Corbit" <DCorbit@connx.com>
|
|
To: <sogapj@fb.freeserve.ne.jp>, <ichiro@ichiro.org>, <tosiyuki@gol.com>
|
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cc: <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
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Status: RO
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|
|
|
I apologize for my English language message. I am unable to speak
|
|
Japanese. We do have a native Japanese speaker here, who could be
|
|
called upon if necessary.
|
|
|
|
The PostgreSQL team is planning to do a native Win32 port. Perhaps you
|
|
would like to help with the effort. In that way, your changes will get
|
|
propagated back up the source code tree and you can gain the benefits
|
|
from future development efforts without performing any work.
|
|
|
|
We did a port to Win32 also, but your approach seems much better. We
|
|
have very fat executables and you have a marvelous DLL approach.
|
|
Probably, the way that you perform the operations is much better.
|
|
|
|
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23451@postgresql.org Thu Jun 6 15:09:15 2002
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Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M23451@postgresql.org>
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|
|
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 16:38:55 +0900
|
|
From: ISHIKAWA Toshiyuki <t-ishikawa@astrodesign.co.jp>
|
|
To: "Dann Corbit" <DCorbit@connx.com>
|
|
cc: sogapj@fb.freeserve.ne.jp, ichiro@ichiro.org, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Cooperation
|
|
Message-ID: <20020606163855.4d8f2be5.t-ishikawa@astrodesign.co.jp>
|
|
In-Reply-To: <D90A5A6C612A39408103E6ECDD77B82920CF1A@voyager.corporate.connx.com>
|
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References: <D90A5A6C612A39408103E6ECDD77B82920CF1A@voyager.corporate.connx.com>
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Precedence: bulk
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Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
|
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Status: RO
|
|
|
|
Dann Corbit wrote:
|
|
|
|
> I apologize for my English language message. I am unable to speak
|
|
> Japanese. We do have a native Japanese speaker here, who could be
|
|
> called upon if necessary.
|
|
|
|
There is no need to aplogize writing an e-mail in English.
|
|
It's global standards, but some portion is a bit difficult
|
|
to understand. Anyhow, we must firstly express our thanks
|
|
for your interest in our project, though we are facing also
|
|
hard obstacles as listed on the Web site.
|
|
|
|
> The PostgreSQL team is planning to do a native Win32 port. Perhaps you
|
|
> would like to help with the effort. In that way, your changes will get
|
|
> propagated back up the source code tree and you can gain the benefits
|
|
> from future development efforts without performing any work.
|
|
|
|
It is nice to hear that the PostgreSQL development team has also working
|
|
on this subject. Will you please illustrate the procedure more clearly how
|
|
to we contribute our effort to your project. The last four words in the
|
|
above clause mean that once we supply you with the changed source, then
|
|
everything afterwords could be handled by the team? How the copy right
|
|
will be dealt with?
|
|
|
|
The development has been continued by the volunteer developers here,
|
|
however, we have to admit that businesses (companies) are also involved
|
|
to support those people providing time to work on the development,
|
|
not to commercialization purpose but expecting some return, e.g. earning
|
|
company's prestige. So, we have to regulate those backgrouds first based
|
|
upon your proposal. We are positive to help you with our effort anyway,
|
|
if things goes well.
|
|
|
|
> We did a port to Win32 also, but your approach seems much better. We
|
|
> have very fat executables and you have a marvelous DLL approach.
|
|
> Probably, the way that you perform the operations is much better.
|
|
|
|
Thanks.
|
|
|
|
Toshi
|
|
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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|
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From dpage@vale-housing.co.uk Sun Jun 9 06:38:29 2002
|
|
Return-path: <dpage@vale-housing.co.uk>
|
|
Received: from anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.88])
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by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g59AcSs05017
|
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for <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>; Sun, 9 Jun 2002 06:38:29 -0400 (EDT)
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Received: from mailgate.vale-housing.co.uk ([193.195.77.162] helo=dogbert.vale-housing.co.uk)
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|
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Subject: RE: Roadmap for a Win32 port
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Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 11:38:26 +0100
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Message-ID: <D85C66DA59BA044EB96AB9683819CF610150D6@dogbert.vale-housing.co.uk>
|
|
Thread-Topic: Roadmap for a Win32 port
|
|
Thread-Index: AcIPOqo6zyhIgICZRXi+W7OR5HfNigAZldCg
|
|
From: "Dave Page" <dpage@vale-housing.co.uk>
|
|
To: "Bruce Momjian" <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,
|
|
"Peter Eisentraut" <peter_e@gmx.net>
|
|
cc: "PostgreSQL-development" <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
|
|
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by candle.pha.pa.us id g59AcSs05017
|
|
Status: RO
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
> -----Original Message-----
|
|
> From: Bruce Momjian [mailto:pgman@candle.pha.pa.us]
|
|
> Sent: 08 June 2002 22:48
|
|
> To: Peter Eisentraut
|
|
> Cc: PostgreSQL-development
|
|
> Subject: Re: Roadmap for a Win32 port
|
|
>
|
|
>
|
|
> >
|
|
> > > Also, it seems Win32 doesn't need these scripts, except initdb.
|
|
> >
|
|
> > The utility of these programs is independent of the
|
|
> platform. If we
|
|
> > think pg_dumpall is not useful, then let's remove it.
|
|
>
|
|
> I think the first two targets for C-ification would be
|
|
> pg_dumpall and initdb. The others have SQL equivalents.
|
|
> Maybe pg_ctl too.
|
|
|
|
I looked at this issue some time ago & came to the conclusion that the
|
|
only scripts that Win32 really needed were pg_dumpall, initdb &
|
|
initlocation.
|
|
|
|
The others have SQL equivalents as you say, apart from pg_ctl which
|
|
under Windows should probably (and generally is) be replaced by the SCM
|
|
(Service Control Manager). The only thing that comes to mind that the
|
|
SCM can't do is a reload.
|
|
|
|
Regards, Dave.
|
|
|
|
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23620@postgresql.org Tue Jun 11 10:20:54 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M23620@postgresql.org>
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Received: from DO5GNE-MTA by mail.gne.de
|
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with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:19:39 +0200
|
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Message-ID: <sd06231b.068@mail.gne.de>
|
|
X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.0.1
|
|
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:19:21 +0200
|
|
From: "Ulrich Neumann" <U_Neumann@gne.de>
|
|
To: <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Subject: [HACKERS] Native Win32/OS2/BeOS/NetWare ports
|
|
MIME-Version: 1.0
|
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|
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|
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Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
|
|
Status: RO
|
|
|
|
Hello together
|
|
|
|
i've seen a lot of discussion about a native win32/OS2/BEOS port of
|
|
PostgreSQL.
|
|
|
|
During the last months i've ported PostgreSQL over to Novell NetWare
|
|
and i've
|
|
changed the code that I use pthreads instead of fork() now.
|
|
|
|
I had a lot of work with the variables and cleanup but mayor parts are
|
|
done.
|
|
|
|
I would appreciate if we could combine this work.
|
|
|
|
My plan was to finish this port, discuss the port with other people and
|
|
offer all the work
|
|
to the PostgreSQL source tree, but now i'm jumping in here because of
|
|
all the discussions.
|
|
|
|
What i've done in detail:
|
|
- i've defined #USE_PTHREADS in pg_config.h to differentiate between
|
|
the forked and the
|
|
threaded backend.
|
|
- I've added several parts in postmaster.c so all functions are based
|
|
on pthreads now.
|
|
- I've changed the signal handling because signals are process based
|
|
- I've changed code in ipc.c to have a clean shutdown of threads
|
|
- I've written some functions to switch the global variables. The
|
|
globals are controled with
|
|
POSIX semaphores.
|
|
- I've written a new implementation of shared memory and semaphores-
|
|
With pthreads I don't
|
|
need real shared memory any more and i'm using POSIX semaphores now
|
|
- Several minor changes.
|
|
|
|
There is still some more work to do like fixing memory leaks or
|
|
handling bad situations, but in general it's
|
|
functional on NetWare.
|
|
|
|
BTW: Is it possible to add some lines on the PostgreSQL webpage that
|
|
there is a first beta of
|
|
PostgreSQL for NetWare available and to offer a binary download for the
|
|
NetWare version?
|
|
|
|
Ulrich Neumann
|
|
|
|
|
|
----------------------------------
|
|
This e-mail is virus scanned
|
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Diese e-mail ist virusgeprueft
|
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23641@postgresql.org Tue Jun 11 15:01:17 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M23641@postgresql.org>
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Received: from postgresql.org (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
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by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g5BJ1Gs23405
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Tue, 11 Jun 2002 13:14:06 -0500 (CDT)
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Message-ID: <00c901c21173$e5f95870$22c30191@comm.mot.com>
|
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From: "Igor Kovalenko" <Igor.Kovalenko@motorola.com>
|
|
To: "Ulrich Neumann" <U_Neumann@gne.de>, <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
References: <sd06231b.068@mail.gne.de>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Native Win32/OS2/BeOS/NetWare ports
|
|
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 13:14:58 -0500
|
|
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
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Status: RO
|
|
|
|
> Hello together
|
|
>
|
|
> i've seen a lot of discussion about a native win32/OS2/BEOS port of
|
|
> PostgreSQL.
|
|
>
|
|
> During the last months i've ported PostgreSQL over to Novell NetWare
|
|
> and i've
|
|
> changed the code that I use pthreads instead of fork() now.
|
|
>
|
|
> I had a lot of work with the variables and cleanup but mayor parts are
|
|
> done.
|
|
>
|
|
> I would appreciate if we could combine this work.
|
|
|
|
Very nice... I have patches for QNX6 which also involved redoing shared
|
|
memory and sempahores stuff. It would make very good sense to intergate,
|
|
especially since you managed to do something very close to what I wanted :)
|
|
|
|
> My plan was to finish this port, discuss the port with other people and
|
|
> offer all the work
|
|
> to the PostgreSQL source tree, but now i'm jumping in here because of
|
|
> all the discussions.
|
|
>
|
|
> What i've done in detail:
|
|
> - i've defined #USE_PTHREADS in pg_config.h to differentiate between
|
|
> the forked and the
|
|
> threaded backend.
|
|
> - I've added several parts in postmaster.c so all functions are based
|
|
> on pthreads now.
|
|
> - I've changed the signal handling because signals are process based
|
|
|
|
Careful here. On certain systems (on many, I suspect) POSIX semantics for
|
|
signals is NOT default. Enforcing POSIX semantics requires certain compile
|
|
time switches which will also change behavior of various functions.
|
|
|
|
> - I've changed code in ipc.c to have a clean shutdown of threads
|
|
> - I've written some functions to switch the global variables. The
|
|
> globals are controled with
|
|
> POSIX semaphores.
|
|
> - I've written a new implementation of shared memory and semaphores-
|
|
> With pthreads I don't
|
|
> need real shared memory any more and i'm using POSIX semaphores now
|
|
|
|
POSIX semaphores for what? I assume by the conext that you're talking about
|
|
replacing SysV semaphores which are used to control access to shared memory.
|
|
If that is the case, POSIX semaphores are not the best choice really. POSIX
|
|
mutexes would be okay, but on SMP systems spinlocks (hardware TAS based
|
|
macros or POSIX spinlocks) would probably be better anyway. Note that on
|
|
most platforms spinlocks are used for that and SysV semaphores were just a
|
|
'last resort' which had unacceptable performance and so I guess it was not
|
|
used at all.
|
|
|
|
Do you have your patch somewhere online?
|
|
|
|
-- igor
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
|
|
|
|
http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html
|
|
|
|
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23662@postgresql.org Wed Jun 12 04:38:26 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M23662@postgresql.org>
|
|
Received: from postgresql.org (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
|
|
by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g5C8cQs16000
|
|
for <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>; Wed, 12 Jun 2002 04:38:26 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
Received: from localhost.localdomain (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
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|
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|
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|
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|
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|
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|
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|
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by postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE69B475D95
|
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for <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>; Wed, 12 Jun 2002 04:36:40 -0400 (EDT)
|
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Received: from DO5GNE-MTA by mail.gne.de
|
|
with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:35:57 +0200
|
|
Message-ID: <sd07240d.003@mail.gne.de>
|
|
X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 6.0.1
|
|
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:35:24 +0200
|
|
From: "Ulrich Neumann" <U_Neumann@gne.de>
|
|
To: <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Subject: Antw: Re: [HACKERS] Native Win32/OS2/BeOS/NetWare ports
|
|
MIME-Version: 1.0
|
|
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
|
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|
|
Content-Disposition: inline
|
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|
|
Precedence: bulk
|
|
Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
|
|
Status: RO
|
|
|
|
Hi Igor,
|
|
|
|
Thanks for your information.
|
|
|
|
I was aware of the "signal" problems and i've done it with thread based
|
|
signals
|
|
This part is functional on my platform but it isn't fully cooked.
|
|
Another problem
|
|
is to make this part portable.
|
|
|
|
Your assumption to replace SysV semaphores with POSIX semaphores is
|
|
correct.
|
|
My first guess was to use mutexes instead of semaphores at all because
|
|
the
|
|
way semaphores are used in Postgres is more something like a "mutex",
|
|
but only semaphores worked for me at this time because the underlying
|
|
C Library had some problems with mutexes and spinlocks. (I'm also
|
|
working on a new C Library for a future OS).
|
|
|
|
Actually I don't have my code downloadable somewhere because the code
|
|
doesn't look very nice in some parts. There is also temporary debug
|
|
code
|
|
in it right now. The best I think is to send it to you via email. If
|
|
this is OK
|
|
please give me a short notice or send an email to me and I'll send you
|
|
a
|
|
copy.
|
|
|
|
Ulrich
|
|
|
|
>>> "Igor Kovalenko" <Igor.Kovalenko@motorola.com> 11.06.2002 20:14:58
|
|
>>>
|
|
> Hello together
|
|
>
|
|
> i've seen a lot of discussion about a native win32/OS2/BEOS port of
|
|
> PostgreSQL.
|
|
>
|
|
> During the last months i've ported PostgreSQL over to Novell NetWare
|
|
> and i've
|
|
> changed the code that I use pthreads instead of fork() now.
|
|
>
|
|
> I had a lot of work with the variables and cleanup but mayor parts
|
|
are
|
|
> done.
|
|
>
|
|
> I would appreciate if we could combine this work.
|
|
|
|
Very nice... I have patches for QNX6 which also involved redoing
|
|
shared
|
|
memory and sempahores stuff. It would make very good sense to
|
|
intergate,
|
|
especially since you managed to do something very close to what I
|
|
wanted :)
|
|
|
|
> My plan was to finish this port, discuss the port with other people
|
|
and
|
|
> offer all the work
|
|
> to the PostgreSQL source tree, but now i'm jumping in here because
|
|
of
|
|
> all the discussions.
|
|
>
|
|
> What i've done in detail:
|
|
> - i've defined #USE_PTHREADS in pg_config.h to differentiate between
|
|
> the forked and the
|
|
> threaded backend.
|
|
> - I've added several parts in postmaster.c so all functions are
|
|
based
|
|
> on pthreads now.
|
|
> - I've changed the signal handling because signals are process based
|
|
|
|
Careful here. On certain systems (on many, I suspect) POSIX semantics
|
|
for
|
|
signals is NOT default. Enforcing POSIX semantics requires certain
|
|
compile
|
|
time switches which will also change behavior of various functions.
|
|
|
|
> - I've changed code in ipc.c to have a clean shutdown of threads
|
|
> - I've written some functions to switch the global variables. The
|
|
> globals are controled with
|
|
> POSIX semaphores.
|
|
> - I've written a new implementation of shared memory and semaphores-
|
|
> With pthreads I don't
|
|
> need real shared memory any more and i'm using POSIX semaphores now
|
|
|
|
POSIX semaphores for what? I assume by the conext that you're talking
|
|
about
|
|
replacing SysV semaphores which are used to control access to shared
|
|
memory.
|
|
If that is the case, POSIX semaphores are not the best choice really.
|
|
POSIX
|
|
mutexes would be okay, but on SMP systems spinlocks (hardware TAS
|
|
based
|
|
macros or POSIX spinlocks) would probably be better anyway. Note that
|
|
on
|
|
most platforms spinlocks are used for that and SysV semaphores were
|
|
just a
|
|
'last resort' which had unacceptable performance and so I guess it was
|
|
not
|
|
used at all.
|
|
|
|
Do you have your patch somewhere online?
|
|
|
|
-- igor
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of
|
|
broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
|
|
|
|
http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html
|
|
----------------------------------
|
|
This e-mail is virus scanned
|
|
Diese e-mail ist virusgeprueft
|
|
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
|
|
|
|
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M28769@postgresql.org Thu Sep 12 13:30:45 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M28769@postgresql.org>
|
|
Received: from postgresql.org (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
|
|
by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g8CHUhE10966
|
|
for <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>; Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:30:44 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
Received: from localhost (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
|
|
by postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP
|
|
id 40E144762BC; Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:29:53 -0400 (EDT)
|
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Received: from postgresql.org (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
|
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|
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id 74F634761BD; Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:29:51 -0400 (EDT)
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Received: from localhost (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
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|
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id B0228475BEC; Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:29:47 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
Received: from corvette.mascari.com (dhcp065-024-158-068.columbus.rr.com [65.24.158.68])
|
|
by postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP
|
|
id 54553475AE5; Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:29:46 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
Received: from mascari.com (ferrari.mascari.com [192.168.2.1])
|
|
by corvette.mascari.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA10985;
|
|
Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:30:07 -0400
|
|
Message-ID: <3D80CEF0.1010900@mascari.com>
|
|
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:29:20 -0400
|
|
From: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
|
|
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0
|
|
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|
|
MIME-Version: 1.0
|
|
To: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
|
|
cc: "scott.marlowe" <scott.marlowe@ihs.com>,
|
|
Justin Clift <justin@postgresql.org>, Dave Page <dpage@vale-housing.co.uk>,
|
|
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,
|
|
PostgreSQL Hackers Mailing List <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] PGXLOG variable worthwhile?
|
|
References: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0209120945260.10924-100000@css120.ihs.com> <3D80C847.1070000@mascari.com>
|
|
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
|
|
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
|
|
X-MailScanner: Found to be clean
|
|
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS new-20020517
|
|
Precedence: bulk
|
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Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
|
|
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS new-20020517
|
|
Status: RO
|
|
|
|
I wrote:
|
|
> scott.marlowe wrote:
|
|
>>
|
|
>> I wouldn't assume that. It's been years since I tested it, but back
|
|
>> then, the command line and all program I used could see the link
|
|
>> created by ln that came with the resource kit. They were distinctly
|
|
>> different from the shortcut type of links, in that they seems
|
|
>> transparent like short cuts in unix generally are.
|
|
>>
|
|
>> Do you have the resource kit or the gnu utils from it?
|
|
>
|
|
>
|
|
> The situation appears to be this:
|
|
>
|
|
> 1. Soft links are available on NTFS 5 (2K/XP) as Reparse Points via the
|
|
> DeviceIoControl() function for any application using the standard C
|
|
> library routines.
|
|
>
|
|
> 2. Soft links are available on any filesystem under 95/98/ME/NT4/2K/XP
|
|
> as OLE streams (.lnk files) for Shell-aware applications.
|
|
>
|
|
> 3. Hard links are available on NTFS 5 (2K/XP) via the CreateHardLink() API.
|
|
|
|
<snip>
|
|
|
|
> 4. Hard links are available on NTFS (NT3.1/NT4) via the BackupWrite()
|
|
> API by writing a special stream to the NTFS.
|
|
|
|
I also believe (I could be wrong) that for directories, the only
|
|
two methods of links are the Soft link methods above. So PGXLOG
|
|
cannot use soft links on a non-XP/2K machine unless it is
|
|
"Shell-Aware". For example, in a cygwin bash command window:
|
|
|
|
mkdir dir1
|
|
ln dir1 dir2 <- Error using Cygwin implementation
|
|
ln -s dir1 dir2 <- Creates a Shell short-cut (NT4)
|
|
echo "Hello" > dir1/test.txt
|
|
cat dir2/test.txt
|
|
"Hello" <- Cygwin's cat(bash?) is shell short-cut aware
|
|
|
|
Now, in a Windows NT command prompt:
|
|
|
|
notepad dir2\test.txt <- Notepad can't find file
|
|
notepad dir2.lnk <- Displays link contents
|
|
|
|
That means for a native port with a different PGXLOG directory
|
|
running on NT4, the only choice *using links* is to make the
|
|
native port shell short-cut aware.
|
|
|
|
I could be wrong but I don't think so.
|
|
|
|
Mike Mascari
|
|
mascarm@mascari.com
|
|
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
|
|
|
|
http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html
|
|
|
|
From mascarm@mascari.com Thu Sep 12 13:01:55 2002
|
|
Return-path: <mascarm@mascari.com>
|
|
Received: from corvette.mascari.com (dhcp065-024-158-068.columbus.rr.com [65.24.158.68])
|
|
by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g8CH1oE07922
|
|
for <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>; Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:01:53 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
Received: from mascari.com (ferrari.mascari.com [192.168.2.1])
|
|
by corvette.mascari.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA10893;
|
|
Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:01:42 -0400
|
|
Message-ID: <3D80C847.1070000@mascari.com>
|
|
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:00:55 -0400
|
|
From: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
|
|
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0
|
|
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
|
|
MIME-Version: 1.0
|
|
To: "scott.marlowe" <scott.marlowe@ihs.com>
|
|
cc: Justin Clift <justin@postgresql.org>,
|
|
Dave Page
|
|
<dpage@vale-housing.co.uk>,
|
|
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,
|
|
PostgreSQL
|
|
Hackers Mailing List <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] PGXLOG variable worthwhile?
|
|
References: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0209120945260.10924-100000@css120.ihs.com>
|
|
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
|
|
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
|
|
X-MailScanner: Found to be clean
|
|
Status: RO
|
|
|
|
scott.marlowe wrote:
|
|
> On Fri, 13 Sep 2002, Justin Clift wrote:
|
|
>
|
|
>>Would it be correct to say that the 'ln' command in the MS Resource Kit
|
|
>>creates this kind of shortcut too, as the Reparse Points feature doesn't
|
|
>>seem to be possible under NT4?
|
|
>
|
|
>
|
|
> I wouldn't assume that. It's been years since I tested it, but back then,
|
|
> the command line and all program I used could see the link created by ln
|
|
> that came with the resource kit. They were distinctly different from the
|
|
> shortcut type of links, in that they seems transparent like short cuts in
|
|
> unix generally are.
|
|
>
|
|
> Do you have the resource kit or the gnu utils from it?
|
|
|
|
The situation appears to be this:
|
|
|
|
1. Soft links are available on NTFS 5 (2K/XP) as Reparse Points
|
|
via the DeviceIoControl() function for any application using the
|
|
standard C library routines.
|
|
|
|
2. Soft links are available on any filesystem under
|
|
95/98/ME/NT4/2K/XP as OLE streams (.lnk files) for Shell-aware
|
|
applications.
|
|
|
|
3. Hard links are available on NTFS 5 (2K/XP) via the
|
|
CreateHardLink() API.
|
|
|
|
See:
|
|
|
|
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/fileio/base/createhardlink.asp
|
|
|
|
4. Hard links are available on NTFS (NT3.1/NT4) via the
|
|
BackupWrite() API by writing a special stream to the NTFS.
|
|
|
|
Example:
|
|
|
|
http://www.mvps.org/win32/ntfs/lnw.cpp
|
|
|
|
The cygwin implementation of link():
|
|
|
|
http://sources.redhat.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/src/winsup/cygwin/syscalls.cc?rev=1.149.2.23&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup&cvsroot=src
|
|
|
|
1. Will use CreateHardLink() if on 2K/XP
|
|
2. Will try to use the BackupWrite() method
|
|
3. Failing #2 will just copy the file
|
|
|
|
See how fun Microsoft makes things?
|
|
|
|
Mike Mascari
|
|
mascarm@mascari.com
|
|
|
|
|
|
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M28774@postgresql.org Thu Sep 12 15:12:54 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M28774@postgresql.org>
|
|
Received: from postgresql.org (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
|
|
by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g8CJCqE21744
|
|
for <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>; Thu, 12 Sep 2002 15:12:52 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
Received: from localhost (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
|
|
by postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP
|
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id 77755476CA2; Thu, 12 Sep 2002 15:12:48 -0400 (EDT)
|
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Received: from postgresql.org (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
|
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by postgresql.org (Postfix) with SMTP
|
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id 98016476ABD; Thu, 12 Sep 2002 15:12:31 -0400 (EDT)
|
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Received: from localhost (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
|
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by postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP
|
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id 3A604476A7F; Thu, 12 Sep 2002 15:12:28 -0400 (EDT)
|
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Received: from sss.pgh.pa.us (unknown [192.204.191.242])
|
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by postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP
|
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id B93FD475D87; Thu, 12 Sep 2002 15:12:20 -0400 (EDT)
|
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Received: from sss2.sss.pgh.pa.us (tgl@localhost [127.0.0.1])
|
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by sss.pgh.pa.us (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g8CJC9Ko009064;
|
|
Thu, 12 Sep 2002 15:12:09 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
To: Curt Sampson <cjs@cynic.net>
|
|
cc: Justin Clift <justin@postgresql.org>,
|
|
PostgreSQL Hackers Mailing List <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] PGXLOG variable worthwhile?
|
|
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.44.0209130127550.891-100000@angelic.cynic.net>
|
|
References: <Pine.NEB.4.44.0209130127550.891-100000@angelic.cynic.net>
|
|
Comments: In-reply-to Curt Sampson <cjs@cynic.net>
|
|
message dated "Fri, 13 Sep 2002 01:28:39 +0900"
|
|
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 15:12:09 -0400
|
|
Message-ID: <9063.1031857929@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
|
From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
|
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|
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|
|
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|
|
|
|
Curt Sampson <cjs@cynic.net> writes:
|
|
> On Thu, 12 Sep 2002, Justin Clift wrote:
|
|
>> Am just wondering if we've ever considered adding a PGXLOG environment
|
|
>> variable that would point to the pg_xlog directory?
|
|
|
|
> IMHO, a much better way to support this is to put this information into
|
|
> the config file. That way it can't easily change when you happen to, say,
|
|
> start postgres in the wrong window.
|
|
|
|
Yes. We rejected environment-variable-based xlog location for reasons
|
|
that apply equally well to Windows. The xlog location *must* be stored
|
|
in a physical file in the data directory; anything else is too unsafe.
|
|
The current technology for that is a symlink.
|
|
|
|
While it doesn't have to be a symlink as opposed to some sort of config
|
|
file, I don't have the slightest problem with saying that we don't
|
|
support relocation of xlog on older Windoid platforms.
|
|
|
|
regards, tom lane
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
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http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M29089@postgresql.org Thu Sep 19 01:07:35 2002
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Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 00:07:22 -0500
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From: "Ross J. Reedstrom" <reedstrm@rice.edu>
|
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To: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
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cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
|
|
Message-ID: <20020919050722.GC15352@rice.edu>
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Mail-Followup-To: "Ross J. Reedstrom" <reedstrm@ece.rice.edu>,
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Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,
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PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
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On Wed, Sep 18, 2002 at 08:01:42PM -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote:
|
|
|
|
> Second, when you unlink() a file on Win32, do applications continue
|
|
> accessing the old file contents if they had the file open before the
|
|
> unlink?
|
|
|
|
I'm pretty sure it errors with 'file in use'. Pretty ugly, huh?
|
|
|
|
Ross
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M29091@postgresql.org Thu Sep 19 01:24:54 2002
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Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M29091@postgresql.org>
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by corvette.mascari.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA15293;
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Thu, 19 Sep 2002 01:23:54 -0400
|
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Message-ID: <3D895F60.4010902@mascari.com>
|
|
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 01:23:45 -0400
|
|
From: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
|
|
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0
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To: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
|
|
References: <200209190001.g8J01gG13849@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
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|
|
Bruce Momjian wrote:
|
|
> I am working with several groups getting the Win32 port ready for 7.4
|
|
> and I have a few questions:
|
|
>
|
|
> What is the standard workaround for the fact that rename() isn't atomic
|
|
> on Win32? Do we need to create our own locking around the
|
|
> reading/writing of files that are normally updated in place using
|
|
> rename()?
|
|
|
|
Visual C++ comes with the source to Microsoft's C library:
|
|
|
|
rename() calls MoveFile() which will error if:
|
|
|
|
1. The target file exists
|
|
2. The source file is in use
|
|
|
|
MoveFileEx() (not available on 95/98) can overwrite the target
|
|
file if it exists. The Apache APR portability library uses
|
|
MoveFileEx() to rename files if under NT/XP/2K vs. a sequence of :
|
|
|
|
1. CreateFile() to test for target file existence
|
|
2. DeleteFile() to remove the target file
|
|
3. MoveFile() to rename the old file to new
|
|
|
|
under Windows 95/98. Of course, some other process could create
|
|
the target file between 2 and 3, so their rename() would just
|
|
error out in that situation. I haven't tested it, but I recall
|
|
reading somewhere that MoveFileEx() has the ability to rename an
|
|
opened file. I'm 99% sure MoveFile() will fail if the source
|
|
file is open.
|
|
|
|
>
|
|
> Second, when you unlink() a file on Win32, do applications continue
|
|
> accessing the old file contents if they had the file open before the
|
|
> unlink?
|
|
>
|
|
|
|
unlink() just calls DeleteFile() which will error if:
|
|
|
|
1. The target file is in use
|
|
|
|
CreateFile() has the option:
|
|
|
|
FILE_FLAG_DELETE_ON_CLOSE
|
|
|
|
which might be able to be used to simulate traditional unlink()
|
|
behavior.
|
|
|
|
Hope that helps,
|
|
|
|
Mike Mascari
|
|
mascarm@mascari.com
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
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---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives?
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|
|
|
http://archives.postgresql.org
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|
|
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M29090@postgresql.org Thu Sep 19 01:23:40 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M29090@postgresql.org>
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for pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 13:23:30 +0800 (WST)
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Thu, 19 Sep 2002 13:23:28 +0800 (WST)
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From: "Christopher Kings-Lynne" <chriskl@familyhealth.com.au>
|
|
To: "Ross J. Reedstrom" <reedstrm@rice.edu>
|
|
cc: "PostgreSQL-development" <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
|
|
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 13:24:01 +0800
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|
|
|
|
> On Wed, Sep 18, 2002 at 08:01:42PM -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote:
|
|
>
|
|
> > Second, when you unlink() a file on Win32, do applications continue
|
|
> > accessing the old file contents if they had the file open before the
|
|
> > unlink?
|
|
>
|
|
> I'm pretty sure it errors with 'file in use'. Pretty ugly, huh?
|
|
|
|
Yeah - the windows filesystem is pretty poor when it comes to multiuser
|
|
access. That's why even as administrator I cannot delete borked files and
|
|
people's profiles and stuff off our NT server - the files are always 'in
|
|
use'. Even if you kick all users off, reboot the machine, do whatever.
|
|
It's terrible.
|
|
|
|
Chris
|
|
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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|
TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org
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|
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M29092@postgresql.org Thu Sep 19 01:32:51 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M29092@postgresql.org>
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Received: from postgresql.org (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
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by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g8J5WnE19160
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by corvette.mascari.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA15313;
|
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Thu, 19 Sep 2002 01:31:28 -0400
|
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Message-ID: <3D896127.2070103@mascari.com>
|
|
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 01:31:19 -0400
|
|
From: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
|
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To: Christopher Kings-Lynne <chriskl@familyhealth.com.au>
|
|
cc: "Ross J. Reedstrom" <reedstrm@rice.edu>,
|
|
PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
|
|
References: <GNELIHDDFBOCMGBFGEFOGEFCCEAA.chriskl@familyhealth.com.au>
|
|
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
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Status: RO
|
|
|
|
Christopher Kings-Lynne wrote:
|
|
>>On Wed, Sep 18, 2002 at 08:01:42PM -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote:
|
|
>>
|
|
>>
|
|
>>>Second, when you unlink() a file on Win32, do applications continue
|
|
>>>accessing the old file contents if they had the file open before the
|
|
>>>unlink?
|
|
>>
|
|
>>I'm pretty sure it errors with 'file in use'. Pretty ugly, huh?
|
|
>
|
|
>
|
|
> Yeah - the windows filesystem is pretty poor when it comes to multiuser
|
|
> access. That's why even as administrator I cannot delete borked files and
|
|
> people's profiles and stuff off our NT server - the files are always 'in
|
|
> use'. Even if you kick all users off, reboot the machine, do whatever.
|
|
> It's terrible.
|
|
>
|
|
> Chris
|
|
>
|
|
|
|
Yep. That's why often it requires rebooting to uninstall
|
|
software. How can the installer remove itself? Under Windows
|
|
95/98/ME, you have to manually add entries to WININIT.INI. With
|
|
Windows NT/XP/2K, MoveFileEx() with a NULL target and the
|
|
MOVEFILE_DELAY_UNTIL_REBOOT flag will add the appropriate
|
|
entries into the system registry so that the next time the
|
|
machine reboots it will remove the files specified. Its a real
|
|
pain and a real hack of an OS.
|
|
|
|
Mike Mascari
|
|
mascarm@mascari.com
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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|
TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org
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|
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M29135@postgresql.org Thu Sep 19 16:26:02 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M29135@postgresql.org>
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by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g8JKPvE10469
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for <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 16:25:57 -0400 (EDT)
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Thu, 19 Sep 2002 16:24:01 -0400 (EDT)
|
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From: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
Message-ID: <200209192024.g8JKO1g10337@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
|
|
In-Reply-To: <3D895F60.4010902@mascari.com>
|
|
To: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
|
|
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 16:24:01 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
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|
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|
|
Mike Mascari wrote:
|
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> Bruce Momjian wrote:
|
|
> > I am working with several groups getting the Win32 port ready for 7.4
|
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> > and I have a few questions:
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> >
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> > What is the standard workaround for the fact that rename() isn't atomic
|
|
> > on Win32? Do we need to create our own locking around the
|
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> > reading/writing of files that are normally updated in place using
|
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> > rename()?
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>
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> Visual C++ comes with the source to Microsoft's C library:
|
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>
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> rename() calls MoveFile() which will error if:
|
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>
|
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> 1. The target file exists
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> 2. The source file is in use
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>
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> MoveFileEx() (not available on 95/98) can overwrite the target
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> file if it exists. The Apache APR portability library uses
|
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> MoveFileEx() to rename files if under NT/XP/2K vs. a sequence of :
|
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>
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> 1. CreateFile() to test for target file existence
|
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> 2. DeleteFile() to remove the target file
|
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> 3. MoveFile() to rename the old file to new
|
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>
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> under Windows 95/98. Of course, some other process could create
|
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> the target file between 2 and 3, so their rename() would just
|
|
> error out in that situation. I haven't tested it, but I recall
|
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> reading somewhere that MoveFileEx() has the ability to rename an
|
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> opened file. I'm 99% sure MoveFile() will fail if the source
|
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> file is open.
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OK, I downloaded APR and see in apr_file_rename():
|
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if (MoveFileEx(frompath, topath, MOVEFILE_REPLACE_EXISTING |
|
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MOVEFILE_COPY_ALLOWED))
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|
|
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Looking at the entire APR function, they have lots of tests so it works
|
|
on Win9X and wide characters. I think we will just use the APR as a
|
|
guide in implementing the things we need. I think MoveFileEx() is the
|
|
proper way to go; any other solution requires loop tests for rename.
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|
|
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I see the MoveFileEx manual page at:
|
|
|
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http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/fileio/base/movefile.asp
|
|
|
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> > Second, when you unlink() a file on Win32, do applications continue
|
|
> > accessing the old file contents if they had the file open before the
|
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> > unlink?
|
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> >
|
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>
|
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> unlink() just calls DeleteFile() which will error if:
|
|
>
|
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> 1. The target file is in use
|
|
>
|
|
> CreateFile() has the option:
|
|
>
|
|
> FILE_FLAG_DELETE_ON_CLOSE
|
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>
|
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> which might be able to be used to simulate traditional unlink()
|
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> behavior.
|
|
|
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No, that flag isn't going to help us. I wonder what MoveFileEx does if
|
|
the target file exists _and_ is open by another user? I don't see any
|
|
loop in that Win32 rename() routine, and I looked at the Unix version of
|
|
apr_file_rename and its just a straight rename() call.
|
|
|
|
--
|
|
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
|
|
pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001
|
|
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road
|
|
+ Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
|
|
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From pgman Thu Sep 19 22:50:41 2002
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Return-path: <pgman>
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Received: (from pgman@localhost)
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by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.10.1) id g8K2ofr29042;
|
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Thu, 19 Sep 2002 22:50:41 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
From: Bruce Momjian <pgman>
|
|
Message-ID: <200209200250.g8K2ofr29042@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
|
|
In-Reply-To: <200209192024.g8JKO1g10337@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
To: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 22:50:41 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
cc: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>,
|
|
PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99 (25)]
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|
|
|
|
Bruce Momjian wrote:
|
|
> > > Second, when you unlink() a file on Win32, do applications continue
|
|
> > > accessing the old file contents if they had the file open before the
|
|
> > > unlink?
|
|
> > >
|
|
> >
|
|
> > unlink() just calls DeleteFile() which will error if:
|
|
> >
|
|
> > 1. The target file is in use
|
|
> >
|
|
> > CreateFile() has the option:
|
|
> >
|
|
> > FILE_FLAG_DELETE_ON_CLOSE
|
|
> >
|
|
> > which might be able to be used to simulate traditional unlink()
|
|
> > behavior.
|
|
>
|
|
> No, that flag isn't going to help us. I wonder what MoveFileEx does if
|
|
> the target file exists _and_ is open by another user? I don't see any
|
|
> loop in that Win32 rename() routine, and I looked at the Unix version of
|
|
> apr_file_rename and its just a straight rename() call.
|
|
|
|
This says that if the target is in use, it is overwritten:
|
|
|
|
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=KB;EN-US;q140570&
|
|
|
|
While I think that is good news, does it open the problem of other
|
|
readers reading partial updates to the file and therefore seeing
|
|
garbage. Not sure how to handle that, nor am I even sure how I would
|
|
test it.
|
|
|
|
--
|
|
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
|
|
pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001
|
|
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road
|
|
+ Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
|
|
|
|
From mascarm@mascari.com Fri Sep 20 00:02:33 2002
|
|
Return-path: <mascarm@mascari.com>
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Fri, 20 Sep 2002 00:01:34 -0400
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Message-ID: <3D8A9DAD.5040500@mascari.com>
|
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Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 00:01:49 -0400
|
|
From: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
|
|
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0
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To: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
|
|
References: <200209200250.g8K2ofr29042@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
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Status: ROr
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|
|
Bruce Momjian wrote:
|
|
> Bruce Momjian wrote:
|
|
>>>
|
|
>>>unlink() just calls DeleteFile() which will error if:
|
|
>>>
|
|
>>>1. The target file is in use
|
|
>>>
|
|
>>>CreateFile() has the option:
|
|
>>>
|
|
>>>FILE_FLAG_DELETE_ON_CLOSE
|
|
>>>
|
|
>>>which might be able to be used to simulate traditional unlink()
|
|
>>>behavior.
|
|
>>
|
|
>>No, that flag isn't going to help us. I wonder what MoveFileEx does if
|
|
>>the target file exists _and_ is open by another user? I don't see any
|
|
>>loop in that Win32 rename() routine, and I looked at the Unix version of
|
|
>>apr_file_rename and its just a straight rename() call.
|
|
>
|
|
>
|
|
> This says that if the target is in use, it is overwritten:
|
|
>
|
|
> http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=KB;EN-US;q140570&
|
|
|
|
I read the article and did not come away with that conclusion.
|
|
The article describes using the MOVEFILE_DELAY_UNTIL_REBOOT
|
|
flag, which was created for the express purpose of allowing a
|
|
SETUP.EXE to remove itself, or rather tell Windows to remove it
|
|
on the next reboot. Also, if you want the Win32 port to run in
|
|
95/98/ME, you can't rely on MoveFileEx(), you have to use
|
|
MoveFile().
|
|
|
|
I will do some testing with concurrency and let you know. But
|
|
don't get your hopes up. This is one of the many advantages that
|
|
TABLESPACEs have when more than one relation is stored in a
|
|
single DATAFILE. There was Oracle for MS-DOS, after all..
|
|
|
|
Mike Mascari
|
|
mascarm@mascari.com
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M29177@postgresql.org Fri Sep 20 00:06:31 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M29177@postgresql.org>
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Fri, 20 Sep 2002 00:05:27 -0400 (EDT)
|
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From: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
Message-ID: <200209200405.g8K45RV12655@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
|
|
In-Reply-To: <3D8A9DAD.5040500@mascari.com>
|
|
To: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
|
|
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 00:05:27 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
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|
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Status: RO
|
|
|
|
Mike Mascari wrote:
|
|
> I read the article and did not come away with that conclusion.
|
|
> The article describes using the MOVEFILE_DELAY_UNTIL_REBOOT
|
|
> flag, which was created for the express purpose of allowing a
|
|
> SETUP.EXE to remove itself, or rather tell Windows to remove it
|
|
> on the next reboot. Also, if you want the Win32 port to run in
|
|
> 95/98/ME, you can't rely on MoveFileEx(), you have to use
|
|
> MoveFile().
|
|
>
|
|
> I will do some testing with concurrency and let you know. But
|
|
> don't get your hopes up. This is one of the many advantages that
|
|
> TABLESPACEs have when more than one relation is stored in a
|
|
> single DATAFILE. There was Oracle for MS-DOS, after all..
|
|
|
|
I was focusing on handling of pg_pwd and other config file that are
|
|
written by various backend while other backends are reading them. The
|
|
actual data files should be OK because we have an exclusive lock when we
|
|
are adding/removing them.
|
|
|
|
--
|
|
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
|
|
pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001
|
|
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road
|
|
+ Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
|
|
|
|
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M29179@postgresql.org Fri Sep 20 00:33:22 2002
|
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Message-ID: <3D8AA4B2.8090507@mascari.com>
|
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Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 00:31:46 -0400
|
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From: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
|
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To: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
|
|
References: <200209200405.g8K45RV12655@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
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Status: RO
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|
|
Bruce Momjian wrote:
|
|
> Mike Mascari wrote:
|
|
>
|
|
>>I will do some testing with concurrency and let you know. But
|
|
>>don't get your hopes up. This is one of the many advantages that
|
|
>>TABLESPACEs have when more than one relation is stored in a
|
|
>>single DATAFILE. There was Oracle for MS-DOS, after all..
|
|
>
|
|
>
|
|
> I was focusing on handling of pg_pwd and other config file that are
|
|
> written by various backend while other backends are reading them. The
|
|
> actual data files should be OK because we have an exclusive lock when we
|
|
> are adding/removing them.
|
|
>
|
|
|
|
OK. So you want to test:
|
|
|
|
1. Process 1 opens "foo"
|
|
2. Process 2 opens "foo"
|
|
3. Process 1 renames "foo" to "bar"
|
|
4. Process 2 can safely read from its open file handle
|
|
|
|
Is that what you want tested? I have a small Win32 app ready to
|
|
test. Just let me know the scenarios...
|
|
|
|
Mike Mascari
|
|
mascarm@mascari.com
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M29180@postgresql.org Fri Sep 20 01:02:47 2002
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Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M29180@postgresql.org>
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Message-ID: <3D8AAB8F.8010001@mascari.com>
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Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 01:01:03 -0400
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From: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
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cc: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,
|
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PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
|
|
References: <200209200405.g8K45RV12655@candle.pha.pa.us> <3D8AA4B2.8090507@mascari.com>
|
|
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|
|
Status: RO
|
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|
|
Mike Mascari wrote:
|
|
> Bruce Momjian wrote:
|
|
>
|
|
>> Mike Mascari wrote:
|
|
>>
|
|
>>> I will do some testing with concurrency and let you know. But don't
|
|
>>> get your hopes up. This is one of the many advantages that
|
|
>>> TABLESPACEs have when more than one relation is stored in a single
|
|
>>> DATAFILE. There was Oracle for MS-DOS, after all..
|
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>>
|
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>>
|
|
>>
|
|
>> I was focusing on handling of pg_pwd and other config file that are
|
|
>> written by various backend while other backends are reading them. The
|
|
>> actual data files should be OK because we have an exclusive lock when we
|
|
>> are adding/removing them.
|
|
>>
|
|
>
|
|
> OK. So you want to test:
|
|
>
|
|
> 1. Process 1 opens "foo"
|
|
> 2. Process 2 opens "foo"
|
|
> 3. Process 1 renames "foo" to "bar"
|
|
> 4. Process 2 can safely read from its open file handle
|
|
|
|
Actually, looking at the pg_pwd code, you want to determine a
|
|
way for:
|
|
|
|
1. Process 1 opens "foo"
|
|
2. Process 2 opens "foo"
|
|
3. Process 1 creates "bar"
|
|
4. Process 1 renames "bar" to "foo"
|
|
5. Process 2 can continue to read data from the open file handle
|
|
and get the original "foo" data.
|
|
|
|
Is that correct?
|
|
|
|
Mike Mascari
|
|
mascarm@mascari.com
|
|
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
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|
|
|
http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html
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|
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M29181@postgresql.org Fri Sep 20 01:30:05 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M29181@postgresql.org>
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Fri, 20 Sep 2002 01:29:34 -0400 (EDT)
|
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From: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
Message-ID: <200209200529.g8K5TYr20440@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
|
|
In-Reply-To: <3D8AAB8F.8010001@mascari.com>
|
|
To: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
|
|
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 01:29:33 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
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X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99 (25)]
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|
|
Mike Mascari wrote:
|
|
> Actually, looking at the pg_pwd code, you want to determine a
|
|
> way for:
|
|
>
|
|
> 1. Process 1 opens "foo"
|
|
> 2. Process 2 opens "foo"
|
|
> 3. Process 1 creates "bar"
|
|
> 4. Process 1 renames "bar" to "foo"
|
|
> 5. Process 2 can continue to read data from the open file handle
|
|
> and get the original "foo" data.
|
|
|
|
Yep, that's it.
|
|
|
|
--
|
|
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
|
|
pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001
|
|
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road
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|
+ Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
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---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M29182@postgresql.org Fri Sep 20 01:36:21 2002
|
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Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M29182@postgresql.org>
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by corvette.mascari.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA18679;
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Fri, 20 Sep 2002 01:35:09 -0400
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Message-ID: <3D8AB39B.80708@mascari.com>
|
|
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 01:35:23 -0400
|
|
From: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
|
|
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0
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To: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
|
|
References: <200209200529.g8K5TYr20440@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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X-MailScanner: Found to be clean
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|
|
Status: RO
|
|
|
|
Bruce Momjian wrote:
|
|
> Mike Mascari wrote:
|
|
>
|
|
>>Actually, looking at the pg_pwd code, you want to determine a
|
|
>>way for:
|
|
>>
|
|
>>1. Process 1 opens "foo"
|
|
>>2. Process 2 opens "foo"
|
|
>>3. Process 1 creates "bar"
|
|
>>4. Process 1 renames "bar" to "foo"
|
|
>>5. Process 2 can continue to read data from the open file handle
|
|
>>and get the original "foo" data.
|
|
>
|
|
>
|
|
> Yep, that's it.
|
|
>
|
|
|
|
So far, MoveFileEx("foo", "bar", MOVEFILE_REPLACE_EXISTING)
|
|
returns "Access Denied" when Process 1 attempts the rename. But
|
|
I'm continuing to investigate the possibilities...
|
|
|
|
Mike Mascari
|
|
mascarm@mascari.com
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
|
|
|
|
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M29183@postgresql.org Fri Sep 20 01:50:47 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M29183@postgresql.org>
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Received: from postgresql.org (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
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by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g8K5ojE22893
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for <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>; Fri, 20 Sep 2002 01:50:46 -0400 (EDT)
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id 709D1D61E; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 22:50:36 -0700 (PDT)
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id 624665C02; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 22:50:36 -0700 (PDT)
|
|
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 22:50:36 -0700 (PDT)
|
|
From: Stephan Szabo <sszabo@megazone23.bigpanda.com>
|
|
To: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
|
|
cc: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,
|
|
PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
|
|
In-Reply-To: <3D8AB39B.80708@mascari.com>
|
|
Message-ID: <20020919224718.H36366-100000@megazone23.bigpanda.com>
|
|
MIME-Version: 1.0
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|
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Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
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|
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS new-20020517
|
|
Status: RO
|
|
|
|
|
|
On Fri, 20 Sep 2002, Mike Mascari wrote:
|
|
|
|
> Bruce Momjian wrote:
|
|
> > Mike Mascari wrote:
|
|
> >
|
|
> >>Actually, looking at the pg_pwd code, you want to determine a
|
|
> >>way for:
|
|
> >>
|
|
> >>1. Process 1 opens "foo"
|
|
> >>2. Process 2 opens "foo"
|
|
> >>3. Process 1 creates "bar"
|
|
> >>4. Process 1 renames "bar" to "foo"
|
|
> >>5. Process 2 can continue to read data from the open file handle
|
|
> >>and get the original "foo" data.
|
|
> >
|
|
> >
|
|
> > Yep, that's it.
|
|
> >
|
|
>
|
|
> So far, MoveFileEx("foo", "bar", MOVEFILE_REPLACE_EXISTING)
|
|
> returns "Access Denied" when Process 1 attempts the rename. But
|
|
> I'm continuing to investigate the possibilities...
|
|
|
|
Does a sequence like
|
|
Process 1 opens "foo"
|
|
Process 2 opens "foo"
|
|
Process 1 creates "bar"
|
|
Process 1 renames "foo" to <something>
|
|
- where something is generated to not overlap an existing file
|
|
Process 1 renames "bar" to "foo"
|
|
Process 2 continues reading
|
|
let you do the replace and keep reading (at the penalty that
|
|
you've now got to have a way to know when to remove the
|
|
various <something>s)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command
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|
(send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to majordomo@postgresql.org)
|
|
|
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From mascarm@mascari.com Fri Sep 20 02:04:41 2002
|
|
Return-path: <mascarm@mascari.com>
|
|
Received: from corvette.mascari.com (dhcp065-024-158-068.columbus.rr.com [65.24.158.68])
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by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g8K64WE24578
|
|
for <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>; Fri, 20 Sep 2002 02:04:38 -0400 (EDT)
|
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Received: from mascari.com (ferrari.mascari.com [192.168.2.1])
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by corvette.mascari.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA18737;
|
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Fri, 20 Sep 2002 02:03:29 -0400
|
|
Message-ID: <3D8ABA3F.6030002@mascari.com>
|
|
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 02:03:43 -0400
|
|
From: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
|
|
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0
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MIME-Version: 1.0
|
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To: Stephan Szabo <sszabo@megazone23.bigpanda.com>
|
|
cc: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,
|
|
PostgreSQL-development
|
|
<pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
|
|
References: <20020919224718.H36366-100000@megazone23.bigpanda.com>
|
|
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
|
|
X-MailScanner: Found to be clean
|
|
Status: RO
|
|
|
|
Stephan Szabo wrote:
|
|
> On Fri, 20 Sep 2002, Mike Mascari wrote:
|
|
>>Bruce Momjian wrote:
|
|
>>>Mike Mascari wrote:
|
|
>>>>Actually, looking at the pg_pwd code, you want to determine a
|
|
>>>>way for:
|
|
>>>>
|
|
>>>>1. Process 1 opens "foo"
|
|
>>>>2. Process 2 opens "foo"
|
|
>>>>3. Process 1 creates "bar"
|
|
>>>>4. Process 1 renames "bar" to "foo"
|
|
>>>>5. Process 2 can continue to read data from the open file handle
|
|
>>>>and get the original "foo" data.
|
|
>>>
|
|
>>>
|
|
>>>Yep, that's it.
|
|
>>>
|
|
>>
|
|
>>So far, MoveFileEx("foo", "bar", MOVEFILE_REPLACE_EXISTING)
|
|
>>returns "Access Denied" when Process 1 attempts the rename. But
|
|
>>I'm continuing to investigate the possibilities...
|
|
>
|
|
>
|
|
> Does a sequence like
|
|
> Process 1 opens "foo"
|
|
> Process 2 opens "foo"
|
|
> Process 1 creates "bar"
|
|
> Process 1 renames "foo" to <something>
|
|
> - where something is generated to not overlap an existing file
|
|
> Process 1 renames "bar" to "foo"
|
|
> Process 2 continues reading
|
|
> let you do the replace and keep reading (at the penalty that
|
|
> you've now got to have a way to know when to remove the
|
|
> various <something>s)
|
|
|
|
Yes! Indeed that does work.
|
|
|
|
Mike Mascari
|
|
mascarm@mascari.com
|
|
|
|
|
|
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M29185@postgresql.org Fri Sep 20 02:14:29 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M29185@postgresql.org>
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by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g8K6ERE25614
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id A6B475C03; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 23:14:14 -0700 (PDT)
|
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Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 23:14:14 -0700 (PDT)
|
|
From: Stephan Szabo <sszabo@megazone23.bigpanda.com>
|
|
To: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
|
|
cc: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,
|
|
PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
|
|
In-Reply-To: <3D8ABA3F.6030002@mascari.com>
|
|
Message-ID: <20020919230827.A36505-100000@megazone23.bigpanda.com>
|
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MIME-Version: 1.0
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X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS new-20020517
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Precedence: bulk
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Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
|
|
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS new-20020517
|
|
Status: RO
|
|
|
|
On Fri, 20 Sep 2002, Mike Mascari wrote:
|
|
|
|
> Stephan Szabo wrote:
|
|
> > On Fri, 20 Sep 2002, Mike Mascari wrote:
|
|
> >>So far, MoveFileEx("foo", "bar", MOVEFILE_REPLACE_EXISTING)
|
|
> >>returns "Access Denied" when Process 1 attempts the rename. But
|
|
> >>I'm continuing to investigate the possibilities...
|
|
> >
|
|
> >
|
|
> > Does a sequence like
|
|
> > Process 1 opens "foo"
|
|
> > Process 2 opens "foo"
|
|
> > Process 1 creates "bar"
|
|
> > Process 1 renames "foo" to <something>
|
|
> > - where something is generated to not overlap an existing file
|
|
> > Process 1 renames "bar" to "foo"
|
|
> > Process 2 continues reading
|
|
> > let you do the replace and keep reading (at the penalty that
|
|
> > you've now got to have a way to know when to remove the
|
|
> > various <something>s)
|
|
>
|
|
> Yes! Indeed that does work.
|
|
|
|
Thinking back, I think that may still fail on Win95 (using MoveFile).
|
|
Once in the past I had to work on (un)installers for Win* and I
|
|
vaguely remember Win95 being more strict than Win98 but that may just
|
|
have been with moving the executable you're currently running.
|
|
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org
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From mascarm@mascari.com Fri Sep 20 03:14:03 2002
|
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Return-path: <mascarm@mascari.com>
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Fri, 20 Sep 2002 03:13:06 -0400
|
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Message-ID: <3D8ACA96.80504@mascari.com>
|
|
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 03:13:26 -0400
|
|
From: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
|
|
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0
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MIME-Version: 1.0
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To: Stephan Szabo <sszabo@megazone23.bigpanda.com>
|
|
cc: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,
|
|
PostgreSQL-development
|
|
<pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
|
|
References: <20020919230827.A36505-100000@megazone23.bigpanda.com>
|
|
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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X-MailScanner: Found to be clean
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Status: RO
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|
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Stephan Szabo wrote:
|
|
> On Fri, 20 Sep 2002, Mike Mascari wrote:
|
|
>>
|
|
>>Yes! Indeed that does work.
|
|
>
|
|
>
|
|
> Thinking back, I think that may still fail on Win95 (using MoveFile).
|
|
> Once in the past I had to work on (un)installers for Win* and I
|
|
> vaguely remember Win95 being more strict than Win98 but that may just
|
|
> have been with moving the executable you're currently running.
|
|
|
|
Well, here's the test:
|
|
|
|
foo.txt contains "This is FOO!"
|
|
bar.txt contains "This is BAR!"
|
|
|
|
Process 1 opens foo.txt
|
|
Process 2 opens foo.txt
|
|
Process 1 sleeps 7.5 seconds
|
|
Process 2 sleeps 15 seconds
|
|
Process 1 uses MoveFile() to rename "foo.txt" to "foo2.txt"
|
|
Process 1 uses MoveFile() to rename "bar.txt" to "foo.txt"
|
|
Process 1 uses DeleteFile() to remove "foo2.txt"
|
|
Process 2 awakens and displays "This is FOO!"
|
|
|
|
On the filesystem, we then have:
|
|
|
|
foo.txt containing "This is BAR!"
|
|
|
|
The good news is that this works fine under NT 4 using just
|
|
MoveFile(). The bad news is that it requires the files be opened
|
|
using CreateFile() with the FILE_SHARE_DELETE flag set. The C
|
|
library which ships with Visual C++ 6 ultimately calls
|
|
CreateFile() via fopen() but with no opportunity through the
|
|
standard C library routines to use the FILE_SHARE_DELETE flag.
|
|
And the FILE_SHARE_DELETE flag cannot be used under Windows
|
|
95/98 (Bad Parameter). Which means, on those platforms, there
|
|
still doesn't appear to be a solution. Under NT/XP/2K,
|
|
AllocateFile() will have to modified to call CreateFile()
|
|
instead of fopen(). I'm not sure about ME, but I suspect it
|
|
behaves similarly to 95/98.
|
|
|
|
Mike Mascari
|
|
mascarm@mascari.com
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M29205@postgresql.org Fri Sep 20 10:36:48 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M29205@postgresql.org>
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Fri, 20 Sep 2002 10:27:52 -0400 (EDT)
|
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To: Stephan Szabo <sszabo@megazone23.bigpanda.com>
|
|
cc: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>, Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,
|
|
PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
|
|
In-Reply-To: <20020919224718.H36366-100000@megazone23.bigpanda.com>
|
|
References: <20020919224718.H36366-100000@megazone23.bigpanda.com>
|
|
Comments: In-reply-to Stephan Szabo <sszabo@megazone23.bigpanda.com>
|
|
message dated "Thu, 19 Sep 2002 22:50:36 -0700"
|
|
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 10:27:52 -0400
|
|
Message-ID: <16067.1032532072@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
|
From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
|
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS new-20020517
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|
|
Status: RO
|
|
|
|
Stephan Szabo <sszabo@megazone23.bigpanda.com> writes:
|
|
> ... let you do the replace and keep reading (at the penalty that
|
|
> you've now got to have a way to know when to remove the
|
|
> various <something>s)
|
|
|
|
That is the hard part. Mike's description omitted one crucial step:
|
|
|
|
6. The old "foo" goes away when the last open file handle for it is
|
|
closed.
|
|
|
|
I doubt there is any practical way for Postgres to cause that to happen
|
|
if the OS itself does not have any support for it.
|
|
|
|
regards, tom lane
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org
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|
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M29206@postgresql.org Fri Sep 20 10:37:53 2002
|
|
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Fri, 20 Sep 2002 10:31:22 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
From: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
Message-ID: <200209201431.g8KEVMg13344@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
|
|
In-Reply-To: <3D8ACA96.80504@mascari.com>
|
|
To: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
|
|
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 10:31:22 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
cc: Stephan Szabo <sszabo@megazone23.bigpanda.com>,
|
|
PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99 (25)]
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Status: RO
|
|
|
|
|
|
I don't think we are not going to be supporting Win9X so there isn't an
|
|
issue there. We will be supporting Win2000/NT/XP.
|
|
|
|
I don't understand FILE_SHARE_DELETE. I read the description at:
|
|
|
|
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/fileio/base/createfile.asp
|
|
|
|
but I don't understand it:
|
|
|
|
FILE_SHARE_DELETE - Windows NT/2000/XP: Subsequent open operations on
|
|
the object will succeed only if delete access is requested.
|
|
|
|
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
|
|
|
Mike Mascari wrote:
|
|
> Stephan Szabo wrote:
|
|
> > On Fri, 20 Sep 2002, Mike Mascari wrote:
|
|
> >>
|
|
> >>Yes! Indeed that does work.
|
|
> >
|
|
> >
|
|
> > Thinking back, I think that may still fail on Win95 (using MoveFile).
|
|
> > Once in the past I had to work on (un)installers for Win* and I
|
|
> > vaguely remember Win95 being more strict than Win98 but that may just
|
|
> > have been with moving the executable you're currently running.
|
|
>
|
|
> Well, here's the test:
|
|
>
|
|
> foo.txt contains "This is FOO!"
|
|
> bar.txt contains "This is BAR!"
|
|
>
|
|
> Process 1 opens foo.txt
|
|
> Process 2 opens foo.txt
|
|
> Process 1 sleeps 7.5 seconds
|
|
> Process 2 sleeps 15 seconds
|
|
> Process 1 uses MoveFile() to rename "foo.txt" to "foo2.txt"
|
|
> Process 1 uses MoveFile() to rename "bar.txt" to "foo.txt"
|
|
> Process 1 uses DeleteFile() to remove "foo2.txt"
|
|
> Process 2 awakens and displays "This is FOO!"
|
|
>
|
|
> On the filesystem, we then have:
|
|
>
|
|
> foo.txt containing "This is BAR!"
|
|
>
|
|
> The good news is that this works fine under NT 4 using just
|
|
> MoveFile(). The bad news is that it requires the files be opened
|
|
> using CreateFile() with the FILE_SHARE_DELETE flag set. The C
|
|
> library which ships with Visual C++ 6 ultimately calls
|
|
> CreateFile() via fopen() but with no opportunity through the
|
|
> standard C library routines to use the FILE_SHARE_DELETE flag.
|
|
> And the FILE_SHARE_DELETE flag cannot be used under Windows
|
|
> 95/98 (Bad Parameter). Which means, on those platforms, there
|
|
> still doesn't appear to be a solution. Under NT/XP/2K,
|
|
> AllocateFile() will have to modified to call CreateFile()
|
|
> instead of fopen(). I'm not sure about ME, but I suspect it
|
|
> behaves similarly to 95/98.
|
|
>
|
|
> Mike Mascari
|
|
> mascarm@mascari.com
|
|
>
|
|
>
|
|
>
|
|
>
|
|
>
|
|
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
> TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org
|
|
>
|
|
|
|
--
|
|
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
|
|
pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001
|
|
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road
|
|
+ Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives?
|
|
|
|
http://archives.postgresql.org
|
|
|
|
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M29208@postgresql.org Fri Sep 20 11:30:26 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M29208@postgresql.org>
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Fri, 20 Sep 2002 10:56:39 -0400
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Message-ID: <3D8B373C.7060102@mascari.com>
|
|
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 10:57:00 -0400
|
|
From: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
|
|
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0
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|
|
MIME-Version: 1.0
|
|
To: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
cc: Stephan Szabo <sszabo@megazone23.bigpanda.com>,
|
|
PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
|
|
References: <200209201431.g8KEVMg13344@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
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X-MailScanner: Found to be clean
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|
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Status: RO
|
|
|
|
Bruce Momjian wrote:
|
|
> I don't think we are not going to be supporting Win9X so there isn't an
|
|
> issue there. We will be supporting Win2000/NT/XP.
|
|
>
|
|
> I don't understand FILE_SHARE_DELETE. I read the description at:
|
|
>
|
|
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/fileio/base/createfile.asp
|
|
>
|
|
> but I don't understand it:
|
|
>
|
|
> FILE_SHARE_DELETE - Windows NT/2000/XP: Subsequent open operations on
|
|
> the object will succeed only if delete access is requested.
|
|
|
|
I think that's a rather poor description. I think it just means
|
|
that if the file is opened once via CreateFile() with
|
|
FILE_SHARE_DELETE, then any subsequent CreateFile() calls will
|
|
fail unless they too have FILE_SHARE_DELETE. In other words, if
|
|
one of us can delete this file while its open, any of us can.
|
|
|
|
Mike Mascari
|
|
mascarm@mascari.com
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
|
|
|
|
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M29213@postgresql.org Fri Sep 20 11:30:47 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M29213@postgresql.org>
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Received: from postgresql.org (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
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Fri, 20 Sep 2002 11:05:38 -0400 (EDT)
|
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From: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
Message-ID: <200209201505.g8KF5ch17250@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
|
|
In-Reply-To: <3D8B373C.7060102@mascari.com>
|
|
To: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
|
|
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 11:05:38 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
cc: Stephan Szabo <sszabo@megazone23.bigpanda.com>,
|
|
PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
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|
Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
|
|
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS new-20020517
|
|
Status: RO
|
|
|
|
Mike Mascari wrote:
|
|
> Bruce Momjian wrote:
|
|
> > I don't think we are not going to be supporting Win9X so there isn't an
|
|
> > issue there. We will be supporting Win2000/NT/XP.
|
|
> >
|
|
> > I don't understand FILE_SHARE_DELETE. I read the description at:
|
|
> >
|
|
> > http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/fileio/base/createfile.asp
|
|
> >
|
|
> > but I don't understand it:
|
|
> >
|
|
> > FILE_SHARE_DELETE - Windows NT/2000/XP: Subsequent open operations on
|
|
> > the object will succeed only if delete access is requested.
|
|
>
|
|
> I think that's a rather poor description. I think it just means
|
|
> that if the file is opened once via CreateFile() with
|
|
> FILE_SHARE_DELETE, then any subsequent CreateFile() calls will
|
|
> fail unless they too have FILE_SHARE_DELETE. In other words, if
|
|
> one of us can delete this file while its open, any of us can.
|
|
|
|
I don't understand what that gets us.
|
|
|
|
--
|
|
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
|
|
pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001
|
|
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road
|
|
+ Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
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From sszabo@megazone23.bigpanda.com Fri Sep 20 11:29:09 2002
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Return-path: <sszabo@megazone23.bigpanda.com>
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id 54E705C02; Fri, 20 Sep 2002 08:10:19 -0700 (PDT)
|
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Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 08:10:19 -0700 (PDT)
|
|
From: Stephan Szabo <sszabo@megazone23.bigpanda.com>
|
|
To: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
|
|
cc: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,
|
|
PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
|
|
In-Reply-To: <3D8B373C.7060102@mascari.com>
|
|
Message-ID: <20020920080949.H40440-100000@megazone23.bigpanda.com>
|
|
MIME-Version: 1.0
|
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Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
|
|
Status: RO
|
|
|
|
On Fri, 20 Sep 2002, Mike Mascari wrote:
|
|
|
|
> Bruce Momjian wrote:
|
|
> > I don't think we are not going to be supporting Win9X so there isn't an
|
|
> > issue there. We will be supporting Win2000/NT/XP.
|
|
> >
|
|
> > I don't understand FILE_SHARE_DELETE. I read the description at:
|
|
> >
|
|
> > http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/fileio/base/createfile.asp
|
|
> >
|
|
> > but I don't understand it:
|
|
> >
|
|
> > FILE_SHARE_DELETE - Windows NT/2000/XP: Subsequent open operations on
|
|
> > the object will succeed only if delete access is requested.
|
|
>
|
|
> I think that's a rather poor description. I think it just means
|
|
> that if the file is opened once via CreateFile() with
|
|
> FILE_SHARE_DELETE, then any subsequent CreateFile() calls will
|
|
> fail unless they too have FILE_SHARE_DELETE. In other words, if
|
|
> one of us can delete this file while its open, any of us can.
|
|
|
|
The question is, what happens if two people have the file open
|
|
and one goes and tries to delete it? Can the other still read
|
|
from it?
|
|
|
|
|
|
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M29216@postgresql.org Fri Sep 20 11:45:47 2002
|
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Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M29216@postgresql.org>
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Message-ID: <3D8B4087.AF0CD803@Yahoo.com>
|
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Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 11:36:39 -0400
|
|
From: Jan Wieck <JanWieck@Yahoo.com>
|
|
Organization: Home
|
|
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MIME-Version: 1.0
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To: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
|
|
cc: Stephan Szabo <sszabo@megazone23.bigpanda.com>,
|
|
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,
|
|
PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
|
|
References: <20020919230827.A36505-100000@megazone23.bigpanda.com> <3D8ACA96.80504@mascari.com>
|
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|
|
Mike Mascari wrote:
|
|
|
|
> instead of fopen(). I'm not sure about ME, but I suspect it
|
|
> behaves similarly to 95/98.
|
|
|
|
I just checked with Katie and the good news (tm) is that the Win32 port
|
|
we did here at PeerDirect doesn't support 95/98 and ME anyway. It does
|
|
support NT4, 2000 and XP. So don't bother.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jan
|
|
|
|
--
|
|
|
|
#======================================================================#
|
|
# It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. #
|
|
# Let's break this rule - forgive me. #
|
|
#================================================== JanWieck@Yahoo.com #
|
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|
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---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
|
|
|
|
http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html
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|
|
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M29222@postgresql.org Fri Sep 20 11:59:16 2002
|
|
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by corvette.mascari.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA20244;
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Fri, 20 Sep 2002 11:54:31 -0400
|
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Message-ID: <3D8B44CC.6070802@mascari.com>
|
|
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 11:54:52 -0400
|
|
From: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
|
|
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0
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To: Stephan Szabo <sszabo@megazone23.bigpanda.com>
|
|
cc: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,
|
|
PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
|
|
References: <20020920080949.H40440-100000@megazone23.bigpanda.com>
|
|
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
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|
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Status: RO
|
|
|
|
Stephan Szabo wrote:
|
|
> On Fri, 20 Sep 2002, Mike Mascari wrote:
|
|
>
|
|
>
|
|
>>I think that's a rather poor description. I think it just means
|
|
>>that if the file is opened once via CreateFile() with
|
|
>>FILE_SHARE_DELETE, then any subsequent CreateFile() calls will
|
|
>>fail unless they too have FILE_SHARE_DELETE. In other words, if
|
|
>>one of us can delete this file while its open, any of us can.
|
|
>
|
|
>
|
|
> The question is, what happens if two people have the file open
|
|
> and one goes and tries to delete it? Can the other still read
|
|
> from it?
|
|
|
|
Yes. I just tested it and it worked. I'll test Bruce's scenario
|
|
as well:
|
|
|
|
foo contains: "FOO"
|
|
bar contains: "BAR"
|
|
|
|
1. Process 1 opens "foo"
|
|
2. Process 2 opens "foo"
|
|
3. Process 1 calls MoveFile("foo", "foo2");
|
|
4. Process 3 opens "foo" <- Successful?
|
|
5. Process 1 calls MoveFile("bar", "foo");
|
|
6. Process 4 opens "foo" <- Successful?
|
|
7. Process 1 calls DeleteFile("foo2");
|
|
8. Process 1, 2, 3, 4 all read from their respective handles.
|
|
|
|
I think the thing to worry about is a race condition between the
|
|
two MoveFile() attempts. A very ugly hack would be to loop in a
|
|
CreateFile() in an attempt to open "foo", giving up if the error
|
|
is not a NOT EXISTS error code.
|
|
|
|
Mike Mascari
|
|
mascarm@mascari.com
|
|
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org
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|
|
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M29230@postgresql.org Fri Sep 20 13:12:45 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M29230@postgresql.org>
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Fri, 20 Sep 2002 12:27:10 -0400
|
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Message-ID: <3D8B4C74.2050708@mascari.com>
|
|
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 12:27:32 -0400
|
|
From: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
|
|
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; WinNT4.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0
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To: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
cc: Stephan Szabo <sszabo@megazone23.bigpanda.com>,
|
|
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
|
|
References: <20020920080949.H40440-100000@megazone23.bigpanda.com> <3D8B44CC.6070802@mascari.com>
|
|
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|
|
Status: ROr
|
|
|
|
I wrote:
|
|
> Stephan Szabo wrote:
|
|
>>
|
|
>> The question is, what happens if two people have the file open
|
|
>> and one goes and tries to delete it? Can the other still read
|
|
>> from it?
|
|
>
|
|
> Yes. I just tested it and it worked. I'll test Bruce's scenario as well:
|
|
>
|
|
> foo contains: "FOO"
|
|
> bar contains: "BAR"
|
|
>
|
|
> 1. Process 1 opens "foo"
|
|
> 2. Process 2 opens "foo"
|
|
> 3. Process 1 calls MoveFile("foo", "foo2");
|
|
> 4. Process 3 opens "foo" <- Successful?
|
|
> 5. Process 1 calls MoveFile("bar", "foo");
|
|
> 6. Process 4 opens "foo" <- Successful?
|
|
> 7. Process 1 calls DeleteFile("foo2");
|
|
> 8. Process 1, 2, 3, 4 all read from their respective handles.
|
|
|
|
Process 1: "FOO"
|
|
Process 2: "FOO"
|
|
Process 3: Error - File does not exist
|
|
Process 4: "BAR"
|
|
|
|
Its interesting in that it allows for Unix-style rename() and
|
|
unlink() behavior, but with a race condition. Without Stephan's
|
|
two MoveFile() trick and the FILE_SHARE_DELETE flag, however,
|
|
the result would be Access Denied. Are the places in the backend
|
|
that use rename() and unlink() renaming and unlinking files that
|
|
are only opened for a brief moment by other backends?
|
|
|
|
Mike Mascari
|
|
mascarm@mascari.com
|
|
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives?
|
|
|
|
http://archives.postgresql.org
|
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|
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M29235@postgresql.org Fri Sep 20 13:38:05 2002
|
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M29235@postgresql.org>
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by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g8KHc3E18565
|
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by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.10.1) id g8KHVRu17060;
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Fri, 20 Sep 2002 13:31:27 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
From: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
Message-ID: <200209201731.g8KHVRu17060@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
|
|
In-Reply-To: <3D8B4C74.2050708@mascari.com>
|
|
To: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
|
|
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 13:31:27 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>,
|
|
Stephan Szabo <sszabo@megazone23.bigpanda.com>
|
|
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99 (25)]
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|
|
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS new-20020517
|
|
Status: RO
|
|
|
|
Mike Mascari wrote:
|
|
> Its interesting in that it allows for Unix-style rename() and
|
|
> unlink() behavior, but with a race condition. Without Stephan's
|
|
> two MoveFile() trick and the FILE_SHARE_DELETE flag, however,
|
|
> the result would be Access Denied. Are the places in the backend
|
|
> that use rename() and unlink() renaming and unlinking files that
|
|
> are only opened for a brief moment by other backends?
|
|
|
|
Yes, those files are only opened for a brief moment. They are not held
|
|
open.
|
|
|
|
--
|
|
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
|
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pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001
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+ If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road
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+ Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M29237@postgresql.org Fri Sep 20 13:57:39 2002
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Fri, 20 Sep 2002 13:53:49 -0400 (EDT)
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From: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
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Message-ID: <200209201753.g8KHrnp21564@candle.pha.pa.us>
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
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In-Reply-To: <3D8B4C74.2050708@mascari.com>
|
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To: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
|
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Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 13:53:49 -0400 (EDT)
|
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cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>,
|
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Stephan Szabo <sszabo@megazone23.bigpanda.com>
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X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99 (25)]
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Status: RO
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Mike Mascari wrote:
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> > foo contains: "FOO"
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> > bar contains: "BAR"
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> >
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> > 1. Process 1 opens "foo"
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> > 2. Process 2 opens "foo"
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> > 3. Process 1 calls MoveFile("foo", "foo2");
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> > 4. Process 3 opens "foo" <- Successful?
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> > 5. Process 1 calls MoveFile("bar", "foo");
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> > 6. Process 4 opens "foo" <- Successful?
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> > 7. Process 1 calls DeleteFile("foo2");
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> > 8. Process 1, 2, 3, 4 all read from their respective handles.
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>
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> Process 1: "FOO"
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> Process 2: "FOO"
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> Process 3: Error - File does not exist
|
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> Process 4: "BAR"
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>
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> Its interesting in that it allows for Unix-style rename() and
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> unlink() behavior, but with a race condition. Without Stephan's
|
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> two MoveFile() trick and the FILE_SHARE_DELETE flag, however,
|
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> the result would be Access Denied. Are the places in the backend
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> that use rename() and unlink() renaming and unlinking files that
|
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> are only opened for a brief moment by other backends?
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|
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I think we are better off looping over
|
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MoveFileEx(MOVEFILE_REPLACE_EXISTING) until the file isn't opened by
|
|
anyone. That localizes the changes to rename only and not out to all
|
|
the opens.
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The open failure loops when the file isn't there seem much worse.
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I am a little concerned about starving the rename when there is a lot of
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activity but I don't see a better solution.
|
|
|
|
--
|
|
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
|
|
pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001
|
|
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road
|
|
+ Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
|
|
|
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M29214@postgresql.org Fri Sep 20 11:31:33 2002
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Fri, 20 Sep 2002 11:04:53 -0400 (EDT)
|
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From: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
Message-ID: <200209201504.g8KF4rj17150@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questionst
|
|
In-Reply-To: <3D8ABA3F.6030002@mascari.com>
|
|
To: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
|
|
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 11:04:53 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
cc: Stephan Szabo <sszabo@megazone23.bigpanda.com>,
|
|
PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
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X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99 (25)]
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Status: RO
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|
|
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It is good that moving the file out of the way works, but it doesn't
|
|
completely solve the problem.
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What we have now with Unix rename is ideal:
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1) old opens continue seeing the old contents
|
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2) new opens see the new contents
|
|
3) the file always exists under the fixed name
|
|
|
|
We have that with MoveFileEx(), but we have to loop over the routine
|
|
until is succeeds. If we move the old file out of the way, we loose the
|
|
ability to know the file always exists and then we have to loop over
|
|
open() until is succeeds.
|
|
|
|
I think we may be best just looping on MoveFileEx() until is succeeds.
|
|
We do the pg_pwd writes while holding an exclusive lock on pg_shadow so
|
|
that will guarantee that no one else will slip an old version of the
|
|
file in after we have written it. However, it also prevents pg_shadow
|
|
access while we are doing the looping. Yuck.
|
|
|
|
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
|
|
|
Mike Mascari wrote:
|
|
> Stephan Szabo wrote:
|
|
> > On Fri, 20 Sep 2002, Mike Mascari wrote:
|
|
> >>Bruce Momjian wrote:
|
|
> >>>Mike Mascari wrote:
|
|
> >>>>Actually, looking at the pg_pwd code, you want to determine a
|
|
> >>>>way for:
|
|
> >>>>
|
|
> >>>>1. Process 1 opens "foo"
|
|
> >>>>2. Process 2 opens "foo"
|
|
> >>>>3. Process 1 creates "bar"
|
|
> >>>>4. Process 1 renames "bar" to "foo"
|
|
> >>>>5. Process 2 can continue to read data from the open file handle
|
|
> >>>>and get the original "foo" data.
|
|
> >>>
|
|
> >>>
|
|
> >>>Yep, that's it.
|
|
> >>>
|
|
> >>
|
|
> >>So far, MoveFileEx("foo", "bar", MOVEFILE_REPLACE_EXISTING)
|
|
> >>returns "Access Denied" when Process 1 attempts the rename. But
|
|
> >>I'm continuing to investigate the possibilities...
|
|
> >
|
|
> >
|
|
> > Does a sequence like
|
|
> > Process 1 opens "foo"
|
|
> > Process 2 opens "foo"
|
|
> > Process 1 creates "bar"
|
|
> > Process 1 renames "foo" to <something>
|
|
> > - where something is generated to not overlap an existing file
|
|
> > Process 1 renames "bar" to "foo"
|
|
> > Process 2 continues reading
|
|
> > let you do the replace and keep reading (at the penalty that
|
|
> > you've now got to have a way to know when to remove the
|
|
> > various <something>s)
|
|
>
|
|
> Yes! Indeed that does work.
|
|
>
|
|
> Mike Mascari
|
|
> mascarm@mascari.com
|
|
>
|
|
>
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|
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
|
> TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org
|
|
>
|
|
|
|
--
|
|
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
|
|
pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001
|
|
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road
|
|
+ Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
|
|
|
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
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TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
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http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html
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From tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us Fri Sep 20 11:50:26 2002
|
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Fri, 20 Sep 2002 11:50:17 -0400 (EDT)
|
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To: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
cc: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>,
|
|
Stephan Szabo <sszabo@megazone23.bigpanda.com>,
|
|
PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questionst
|
|
In-Reply-To: <200209201504.g8KF4rj17150@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
References: <200209201504.g8KF4rj17150@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
Comments: In-reply-to Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
message dated "Fri, 20 Sep 2002 11:04:53 -0400"
|
|
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 11:50:17 -0400
|
|
Message-ID: <16739.1032537017@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
|
From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
|
Status: ROr
|
|
|
|
Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us> writes:
|
|
> I think we may be best just looping on MoveFileEx() until is succeeds.
|
|
> We do the pg_pwd writes while holding an exclusive lock on pg_shadow so
|
|
> that will guarantee that no one else will slip an old version of the
|
|
> file in after we have written it. However, it also prevents pg_shadow
|
|
> access while we are doing the looping. Yuck.
|
|
|
|
Surely you're not evaluating this on the assumption that the pg_shadow
|
|
triggers are the only places that use rename() ?
|
|
|
|
I see other places in pgstat and relcache that expect rename() to work
|
|
per Unix spec.
|
|
|
|
regards, tom lane
|
|
|
|
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M29223@postgresql.org Fri Sep 20 12:04:21 2002
|
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Fri, 20 Sep 2002 11:56:02 -0400 (EDT)
|
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From: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
Message-ID: <200209201556.g8KFu2k28023@candle.pha.pa.us>
|
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questionst
|
|
In-Reply-To: <16739.1032537017@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
|
To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
|
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 11:56:02 -0400 (EDT)
|
|
cc: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>,
|
|
Stephan Szabo <sszabo@megazone23.bigpanda.com>,
|
|
PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
|
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99 (25)]
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|
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|
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Status: RO
|
|
|
|
Tom Lane wrote:
|
|
> Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us> writes:
|
|
> > I think we may be best just looping on MoveFileEx() until is succeeds.
|
|
> > We do the pg_pwd writes while holding an exclusive lock on pg_shadow so
|
|
> > that will guarantee that no one else will slip an old version of the
|
|
> > file in after we have written it. However, it also prevents pg_shadow
|
|
> > access while we are doing the looping. Yuck.
|
|
>
|
|
> Surely you're not evaluating this on the assumption that the pg_shadow
|
|
> triggers are the only places that use rename() ?
|
|
>
|
|
> I see other places in pgstat and relcache that expect rename() to work
|
|
> per Unix spec.
|
|
|
|
Yes, I know there are others but I think we will need _a_ rename that
|
|
works 100% and then replace that in all Win32 rename cases.
|
|
|
|
Given what I have seen, I think a single rename with a loop that uses
|
|
MoveFileEx() may be our best bet. It is localized, doesn't affect the
|
|
open() code, and should work well. The only downside is that under
|
|
heavy read activity the loop will loop around a few times but I just
|
|
don't see another solution.
|
|
|
|
I was initially concerned that the loop in rename could let old renames
|
|
update the file overwriting newer contents but I realize now that
|
|
rename() itself has the same issue (an old rename could hit in the code
|
|
after a newer rename) so in all cases we must already have the proper
|
|
locking in place.
|
|
|
|
--
|
|
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
|
|
pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001
|
|
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road
|
|
+ Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
|
|
|
|
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From pgsql-hackers-win32-owner+M201@postgresql.org Tue Nov 11 15:00:07 2003
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Subject: [pgsql-hackers-win32] CreateProcess vs. CreateThread (was: Committing Resources to Win32)
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Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 14:58:23 -0500
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From: "Merlin Moncure" <merlin.moncure@rcsonline.com>
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To: "Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com>
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cc: <pgsql-hackers-win32@postgresql.org>
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Status: OR
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Joshua D. Drake wrote:
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> >problem is the ipc-daemon which has a tendency to crash. It seems
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> >slower on writes, but that is strictly anecdotal. With synching off,
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it
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> >hums along happily.
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> >
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> It is slower on rights, connection startup, limited on connections,
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> tcp/ip transfer and you should
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> never run PostgreSQL with sync off unless you are not worried about
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data
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> integrity.
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I agree 100%. See notes below.
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> >The perceived win32 process management problems are a total red
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herring.
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> >
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> >
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> I disagree... read the other posts. CreateProcess does not scale like
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> CreateThread.
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Here is a good resource comparing process creation on Linux and NT (with
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source).
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http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/l-rt7/?t=gr,Redhat=T
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headsMgt
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NT can create 150 processes/sec (vs. 300+ on Linux 2.4.2). Even with
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the slower process creation time, most postgres applications will spend
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a tiny fraction of their time inside process creation. Again, this is
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much more relevant to a web server than a database server. Compile and
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run the code supplied in the link if you don't believe me (and I don't
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expect you to :)).
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My point about cygwin was to try and illustrate that the performance
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problems wrt postgres on win32 are almost certainly going to be I/O
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based, not process based (as evidenced by the decent performance with
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fsync=off), and this is due to the way files are synched (somebody
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correct me if I'm wrong on this point). I would hate to see you spend a
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bunch of time implementing threading only to find out you are better off
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than with the cygwin version. In case I am wrong, it might be
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informative to fire up a threaded port to see if the end justifies the
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means. The best apples to apples comparison is to run cygwin/peerdirect
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fsync=off vs. linux fsync=off. This is not useful in a production
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sense, but will help tell the relative performance wrt threads vs.
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processes.
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My gut tells me the proper path is to:
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1. Implement no frills process based port to win32 based on (as much as
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possible) native sources and native build environment.
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2. Troubleshoot specific performance problems, which will most likely be
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on the I/O side. Fixing them may ultimately lead to api level file
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calls (possibly including asynch I/O) on win32, which may be the only
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way that platform will ever run postgres as good as on the unix side of
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things.
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Regards,
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Merlin
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