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Add gcj discussion.
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Bruce Momjian
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M31158@postgresql.org Wed Oct 30 14:31:27 2002
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To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
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Subject: [HACKERS] PG functions in Java: maybe use gcj?
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Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 14:29:57 -0500
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Message-ID: <819.1036006197@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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Status: OR
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I had an interesting conversation today with Tom Tromey and Andrew Haley
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of Red Hat about how to implement "pljava" for Postgres. Rather than
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futzing with an external JVM, their thought is to use gcj (gcc compiling
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Java). It sounds like this approach would mostly just work, modulo
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needing to use a small amount of C++ code to call the defined APIs for
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gcj.
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This would not be a perfect solution: gcj isn't yet ported everywhere,
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and it would probably not play nice on machines where the standard C
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library isn't thread-safe. But it seems a lot more within reach than
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the approaches we've discussed in the past.
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I'm not volunteering to try to do this, but I wanted to toss the idea
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up in the air and see if anyone wants to try it. Tom and Andrew
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indicated they'd be willing to help out with advice etc for anyone
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who wants to take on the project.
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||||||
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regards, tom lane
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M31173@postgresql.org Wed Oct 30 22:51:48 2002
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id 1876OC-0006Ty-00; Thu, 31 Oct 2002 03:53:00 +0000
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Message-ID: <3DC0AA42.4000205@xythos.com>
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Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 19:57:54 -0800
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From: Barry Lind <blind@xythos.com>
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To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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cc: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] PG functions in Java: maybe use gcj?
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References: <819.1036006197@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org
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Status: OR
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I am not sure I follow. Are you suggesting:
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1) create function takes java source and then calls gcj to compile it
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to native and build a .so from it that would get called at runtime?
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or
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2) create function takes java source and just compiles to java .class
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files and the runtime invokes the gcj java interpreter.
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or I guess you could do both at the same time.
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In either case I am concerned about licensing issues. gcj is not under
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a BSD style license. Depending on what you need you are either dealing
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with regular GPL, LGPL, or LGPL with a special java exception.
|
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I beleive (without giving it too much thought) that doing either 1 or 2
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above would end up linking GPL code into postgres. This can be worked
|
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|
around by requiring the the necessary gcj libraries be installed
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separately and detected at configure time (like is done elsewhere). But
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is does (I think) present a problem for commercial products that would
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like to redistribute postgres with pljava.
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|
|
||||||
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Another challenge here it that the java code is going to want to use the
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jdbc api when communicating with the database. One difficulty here is
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getting jdbc to be part of the same transaction as the calling java
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function. Such that if the java stored procedure selects or updates
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data it is doing it in the same transaction as the caller of the
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function. Today the jdbc driver only knows how to communicate via the
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FE/BE protocol which will end up creating a new process and transaction.
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The jdbc driver would need to not use the FE/BE protocol but instead
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probably use jni calls.
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thanks,
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--Barry
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Tom Lane wrote:
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> I had an interesting conversation today with Tom Tromey and Andrew Haley
|
||||||
|
> of Red Hat about how to implement "pljava" for Postgres. Rather than
|
||||||
|
> futzing with an external JVM, their thought is to use gcj (gcc compiling
|
||||||
|
> Java). It sounds like this approach would mostly just work, modulo
|
||||||
|
> needing to use a small amount of C++ code to call the defined APIs for
|
||||||
|
> gcj.
|
||||||
|
>
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||||||
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> This would not be a perfect solution: gcj isn't yet ported everywhere,
|
||||||
|
> and it would probably not play nice on machines where the standard C
|
||||||
|
> library isn't thread-safe. But it seems a lot more within reach than
|
||||||
|
> the approaches we've discussed in the past.
|
||||||
|
>
|
||||||
|
> I'm not volunteering to try to do this, but I wanted to toss the idea
|
||||||
|
> up in the air and see if anyone wants to try it. Tom and Andrew
|
||||||
|
> indicated they'd be willing to help out with advice etc for anyone
|
||||||
|
> who wants to take on the project.
|
||||||
|
>
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||||||
|
> regards, tom lane
|
||||||
|
>
|
||||||
|
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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> TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command
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> (send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to majordomo@postgresql.org)
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>
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M31175@postgresql.org Wed Oct 30 23:10:42 2002
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Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M31175@postgresql.org>
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Wed, 30 Oct 2002 23:10:29 -0500 (EST)
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To: Barry Lind <blind@xythos.com>
|
||||||
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cc: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
|
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] PG functions in Java: maybe use gcj?
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In-Reply-To: <3DC0AA42.4000205@xythos.com>
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References: <819.1036006197@sss.pgh.pa.us> <3DC0AA42.4000205@xythos.com>
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Comments: In-reply-to Barry Lind <blind@xythos.com>
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message dated "Wed, 30 Oct 2002 19:57:54 -0800"
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Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 23:10:28 -0500
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Message-ID: <3715.1036037428@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS new-20020517
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Precedence: bulk
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X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS new-20020517
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Status: OR
|
||||||
|
|
||||||
|
Barry Lind <blind@xythos.com> writes:
|
||||||
|
> I am not sure I follow. Are you suggesting:
|
||||||
|
> 1) create function takes java source and then calls gcj to compile it
|
||||||
|
> to native and build a .so from it that would get called at runtime?
|
||||||
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> or
|
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> 2) create function takes java source and just compiles to java .class
|
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|
> files and the runtime invokes the gcj java interpreter.
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> or I guess you could do both at the same time.
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The impression I had (after not looking very closely) was that you could
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expect to compile to bytecodes on the fly and then run the gcj
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interpreter. But the .so alternative might be a good fallback if that
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doesn't work.
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> In either case I am concerned about licensing issues. gcj is not under
|
||||||
|
> a BSD style license. Depending on what you need you are either dealing
|
||||||
|
> with regular GPL, LGPL, or LGPL with a special java exception.
|
||||||
|
> I beleive (without giving it too much thought) that doing either 1 or 2
|
||||||
|
> above would end up linking GPL code into postgres. This can be worked
|
||||||
|
> around by requiring the the necessary gcj libraries be installed
|
||||||
|
> separately and detected at configure time (like is done elsewhere). But
|
||||||
|
> is does (I think) present a problem for commercial products that would
|
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|
> like to redistribute postgres with pljava.
|
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|
|
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Good point, but unless you want to build a BSD-license Java
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implementation, there will never be a pljava that doesn't have different
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licensing restrictions than PG itself does. gcj is at least more free
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than either Sun's or IBM's JVM ...
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|
|
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> Another challenge here it that the java code is going to want to use the
|
||||||
|
> jdbc api when communicating with the database.
|
||||||
|
|
||||||
|
Yes. I think we'd need a new implementation of jdbc that sits atop SPI
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|
(invoked via jni I guess) rather than a FE/BE connection. How well
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layered is our jdbc code --- would this mean a large rewrite, or just
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rolling in a new bottom layer?
|
||||||
|
|
||||||
|
regards, tom lane
|
||||||
|
|
||||||
|
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M31202@postgresql.org Thu Oct 31 21:18:38 2002
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Message-ID: <3DC175F7.90901@xythos.com>
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Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 10:27:03 -0800
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From: Barry Lind <blind@xythos.com>
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User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.1) Gecko/20020826
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To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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||||||
|
cc: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
|
||||||
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] PG functions in Java: maybe use gcj?
|
||||||
|
References: <819.1036006197@sss.pgh.pa.us> <3DC0AA42.4000205@xythos.com> <3715.1036037428@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
||||||
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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|
X-Envelope-To: tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us,
|
||||||
|
pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org
|
||||||
|
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS new-20020517
|
||||||
|
Precedence: bulk
|
||||||
|
Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
|
||||||
|
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS new-20020517
|
||||||
|
Status: OR
|
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|
||||||
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|
||||||
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||||||
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Tom Lane wrote:
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> Barry Lind <blind@xythos.com> writes:
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>
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>>In either case I am concerned about licensing issues. gcj is not under
|
||||||
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>>a BSD style license. Depending on what you need you are either dealing
|
||||||
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>>with regular GPL, LGPL, or LGPL with a special java exception.
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||||||
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>>I beleive (without giving it too much thought) that doing either 1 or 2
|
||||||
|
>>above would end up linking GPL code into postgres. This can be worked
|
||||||
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>>around by requiring the the necessary gcj libraries be installed
|
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|
>>separately and detected at configure time (like is done elsewhere). But
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>>is does (I think) present a problem for commercial products that would
|
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>>like to redistribute postgres with pljava.
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>
|
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>
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||||||
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> Good point, but unless you want to build a BSD-license Java
|
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> implementation, there will never be a pljava that doesn't have different
|
||||||
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> licensing restrictions than PG itself does. gcj is at least more free
|
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> than either Sun's or IBM's JVM ...
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>
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It depends on what you mean by more free. An architecture that
|
||||||
|
interacts with an external jvm would let you use any jvm (free ones as
|
||||||
|
well as others). From a licensing standpoint it is generally easy to
|
||||||
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redistribute a jvm or expect the user to have one installed (most java
|
||||||
|
based products out there today do this).
|
||||||
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|
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However in the proposal here we are talking about requiring a specific
|
||||||
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jvm (gcj) and actually linking parts of it into postgres. To the extent
|
||||||
|
that GPL code is linked in the GPL extends to the entire code base. As
|
||||||
|
I said previously there are ways to work around this, but it becomes
|
||||||
|
tricky. Especially when a commercial product wants to bundle postgres
|
||||||
|
and pljava. That resulting bundle is probably entirely under the GPL
|
||||||
|
and then any changes to it are also GPL. So it could be the case that
|
||||||
|
this company would be prevented from submitting improvements they made
|
||||||
|
back to the core product because their improvements are GPLed as a
|
||||||
|
result of pljava.
|
||||||
|
|
||||||
|
Now having said all that, I have been monitoring the progres of gcj for
|
||||||
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some time because I think there are very interesting possibilities. And
|
||||||
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I am all for anyone who wants to look into it further and investigate
|
||||||
|
the possiblities. I just want to raise the licensing issue because it
|
||||||
|
can cause problems and it is better to think about them up front than
|
||||||
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after the fact.
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|
|
||||||
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>
|
||||||
|
>>Another challenge here it that the java code is going to want to use the
|
||||||
|
>>jdbc api when communicating with the database.
|
||||||
|
>
|
||||||
|
>
|
||||||
|
> Yes. I think we'd need a new implementation of jdbc that sits atop SPI
|
||||||
|
> (invoked via jni I guess) rather than a FE/BE connection. How well
|
||||||
|
> layered is our jdbc code --- would this mean a large rewrite, or just
|
||||||
|
> rolling in a new bottom layer?
|
||||||
|
>
|
||||||
|
|
||||||
|
It isn't as well layered as it could be, but it isn't too bad. Overall
|
||||||
|
it shouldn't be too much work, but not a little project either. One
|
||||||
|
area that isn't well layered is the assumption that the raw data from
|
||||||
|
the server is in text format, since that is what the FE/BE protocol
|
||||||
|
provides. So all the conversion functions that convert to/from java
|
||||||
|
datatypes do so in this format. This assumption runs deep into the
|
||||||
|
code. As a first pass it would be easiest to get raw data from SPI
|
||||||
|
convert to text and then convert to java datatypes instead of going
|
||||||
|
directly from the internal SPI format directly to java datatypes. This
|
||||||
|
could be improved upon later.
|
||||||
|
|
||||||
|
> regards, tom lane
|
||||||
|
>
|
||||||
|
|
||||||
|
thanks,
|
||||||
|
--Barry
|
||||||
|
|
||||||
|
|
||||||
|
|
||||||
|
|
||||||
|
|
||||||
|
|
||||||
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
||||||
|
TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command
|
||||||
|
(send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to majordomo@postgresql.org)
|
||||||
|
|
||||||
|
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M31223@postgresql.org Fri Nov 1 07:34:24 2002
|
||||||
|
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M31223@postgresql.org>
|
||||||
|
Received: from postgresql.org (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
|
||||||
|
by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id gA1CYKU23527
|
||||||
|
for <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>; Fri, 1 Nov 2002 07:34:21 -0500 (EST)
|
||||||
|
Received: from localhost (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
|
||||||
|
by postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP
|
||||||
|
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|
||||||
|
Received: from postgresql.org (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
|
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|
by postgresql.org (Postfix) with SMTP
|
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|
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|
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|
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by postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06581474E53
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||||||
|
for <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>; Fri, 1 Nov 2002 07:34:07 -0500 (EST)
|
||||||
|
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|
||||||
|
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|
||||||
|
for <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>; Fri, 1 Nov 2002 07:34:06 -0500 (EST)
|
||||||
|
Received: from lfix.demon.co.uk ([158.152.59.127] helo=linda.lfix.co.uk)
|
||||||
|
by anchor-post-39.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #2)
|
||||||
|
id 187b04-0002Pj-0U
|
||||||
|
for pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org; Fri, 01 Nov 2002 12:34:08 +0000
|
||||||
|
Received: from localhost
|
||||||
|
([127.0.0.1] helo=localhost.localdomain ident=olly)
|
||||||
|
by linda.lfix.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian))
|
||||||
|
id 187b04-0007zb-00
|
||||||
|
for <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>; Fri, 01 Nov 2002 12:34:08 +0000
|
||||||
|
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] PG functions in Java: maybe use gcj?
|
||||||
|
From: Oliver Elphick <olly@lfix.co.uk>
|
||||||
|
To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
|
||||||
|
In-Reply-To: <3DC175F7.90901@xythos.com>
|
||||||
|
References: <819.1036006197@sss.pgh.pa.us> <3DC0AA42.4000205@xythos.com>
|
||||||
|
<3715.1036037428@sss.pgh.pa.us> <3DC175F7.90901@xythos.com>
|
||||||
|
Content-Type: text/plain
|
||||||
|
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
|
||||||
|
X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.8
|
||||||
|
Date: 01 Nov 2002 12:34:08 +0000
|
||||||
|
Message-ID: <1036154048.7925.73.camel@linda>
|
||||||
|
MIME-Version: 1.0
|
||||||
|
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS new-20020517
|
||||||
|
Precedence: bulk
|
||||||
|
Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
|
||||||
|
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS new-20020517
|
||||||
|
Status: OR
|
||||||
|
|
||||||
|
On Thu, 2002-10-31 at 18:27, Barry Lind wrote:
|
||||||
|
|
||||||
|
> However in the proposal here we are talking about requiring a specific
|
||||||
|
> jvm (gcj) and actually linking parts of it into postgres. To the extent
|
||||||
|
> that GPL code is linked in the GPL extends to the entire code base. As
|
||||||
|
> I said previously there are ways to work around this, but it becomes
|
||||||
|
> tricky. Especially when a commercial product wants to bundle postgres
|
||||||
|
> and pljava. That resulting bundle is probably entirely under the GPL
|
||||||
|
> and then any changes to it are also GPL. So it could be the case that
|
||||||
|
> this company would be prevented from submitting improvements they made
|
||||||
|
> back to the core product because their improvements are GPLed as a
|
||||||
|
> result of pljava.
|
||||||
|
|
||||||
|
Nothing that company does can affect the licensing of PostgreSQL itself
|
||||||
|
- it doesn't belong to them, so they cannot change its licence.
|
||||||
|
|
||||||
|
Nothing in the GPL forces them to put GPL copyright on their own
|
||||||
|
alterations.
|
||||||
|
|
||||||
|
What they cannot do is to _distribute_ binary code that links to GPL
|
||||||
|
code while giving fewer rights to their distributees than they
|
||||||
|
themselves received with the GPL code, whether in respect of their own
|
||||||
|
code or the GPL code. Therefore they would be required to make their
|
||||||
|
source changes available to anyone to whom they gave a binary, and they
|
||||||
|
would not be able to restrict the further distribution of those
|
||||||
|
changes. They can contribute those changes to the project under
|
||||||
|
whatever licence they wish that is acceptable to the project.
|
||||||
|
|
||||||
|
Furthermore, gcj is part of the GNU compiler collection, like gcc, and
|
||||||
|
using it does not in itself cause code compiled under it to be subject
|
||||||
|
to the GPL. Linking to its runtime library would normally cause that,
|
||||||
|
but the gcj-3.0 copyright contains the following text:
|
||||||
|
|
||||||
|
========================================================================
|
||||||
|
The libgcj library is licensed under the terms of the GNU General
|
||||||
|
Public License, with this special exception:
|
||||||
|
|
||||||
|
As a special exception, if you link this library with other files
|
||||||
|
to produce an executable, this library does not by itself cause
|
||||||
|
the resulting executable to be covered by the GNU General Public
|
||||||
|
License. This exception does not however invalidate any other
|
||||||
|
reasons why the executable file might be covered by the GNU
|
||||||
|
General Public License.
|
||||||
|
========================================================================
|
||||||
|
|
||||||
|
--
|
||||||
|
Oliver Elphick Oliver.Elphick@lfix.co.uk
|
||||||
|
Isle of Wight, UK
|
||||||
|
http://www.lfix.co.uk/oliver
|
||||||
|
GPG: 1024D/3E1D0C1C: CA12 09E0 E8D5 8870 5839 932A 614D 4C34 3E1D 0C1C
|
||||||
|
========================================
|
||||||
|
"But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their
|
||||||
|
strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles;
|
||||||
|
they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk,
|
||||||
|
and not faint." Isaiah 40:31
|
||||||
|
|
||||||
|
|
||||||
|
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
||||||
|
TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command
|
||||||
|
(send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to majordomo@postgresql.org)
|
||||||
|
|
||||||
|
|||||||
Loading…
x
Reference in New Issue
Block a user